Seal of Binding+Divine Regeneration is NOT an automatic win

[theNater]

BUNK it's irrelevant! Probability of an event is only even arguably irrelevant when that probability is prohibitively low. This is not. This only requires a single attack roll. And then, kill Orcus or not, it'll weaken him massively.

The combo does not provide a guaranteed kill. The likelihood of the combo killing the target does not affect this fact in any way, unless of course the likelihood is certainty.

At no point have I claimed that Seal of Binding+Divine Regeneration would fail to massively weaken Orcus. I've only claimed that it is not certain to kill him.

 

[theNater]

You may want to read the definition of milestone in the DMG p123. It is true that it's generally just two encounters, but you shouldn't count encounters that are excessively easy "Crap, no action points, I find a kobold so we can have an encounter before we see the Lich" and that encounters that are difficult, particularly ones two or more levels higher may count as a milestone, quite specifically: "An encounter that's four or more levels above the party should count as two encounters".

Yup, ya got me there. Serves me right for stopping before I got to the "Varying Action Point Rewards" section.

'Course, if a 30th level party wins an encounter using no other resources than one daily attack and one daily utility, I'm not sure if it qualifies as "really hard", regardless of what level the encounter was. Note that the word used is "should", not "does".

Edit: And I was referring to getting a bonus to hit from tactical presence, though any number of encounter powers that reduce defenses or increase allies attacks would also work. Certainly if you're counting rounds and you know he's about to get out, readying stunning strike and stunning smite for when it ends may buy you a round of no action.

Indeed it may, but then Seal of Binding and Divine Regeneration didn't win the fight. Seal of Binding, Divine Regeneration, Stunning Strike and Stunning Smite did.

And minimum damage on 100d10s is 1 in a google too rare for it to be brought up in all seriousness.

True. This may give you some indication as to how seriously I'm taking this topic.

But we should always remember that just because something is unlikely, even extremely unlikely, doesn't mean it can't happen. Even a 1 in a googleplex chance is still different from no chance.

 

[DracoSuave]

Just so we're clear... are you trying to protest that seal of binding is broken but not completely utterly game broken... or are you trying to protest that it's safe and balanced?

I mean, it's not "Oh... I see you're playing a 1st level Elf Cleric... and yeah, I have it on good authority that at 30th you'll fight Orcus... so, hey, good game, you win." but it is "the DM should take steps to ensure that this one ability does not ruin entire battles and make the game dreadfully boring and anticlimatic" which does mean it's broken.

Actually to be clear, the problem isn't Seal of Binding. The problem is Divine Regeneration, and more broadly, Demigod.

Every awesome-o-murder-solo Orcus build is centered around Demigod shinanegans more than class powers. The evidence weighs in then that while Demigod shinanegans are around, there's no real fair way to test the brokenness of the class powers.

This is why every Character Optimization thread should read as follows:

I took the Demigod Epic Destiny and won with it.

It's that overpowered.

 

[MarkChevallier]

No, the problem is Seal of Binding. You don't necessarily need Demigod to make it work, it's just the easiest way. You can repeat the trick with any source of healing or regeneration that will allow you to heal an adequate number of hit points (and the number of ways to do this will grow as time passes and splatbooks spread like bloated, power-ridden tumours).

The damage inflicted by the power itself is not really its selling point. It's the guaranteed 50 rounds of inactivity on the part of your enemy which makes it sing. During this time, other PCs can lay on the hurtin' with non-attack damaging effects.

The attack roll to make it work also becomes a triviality at the level which you will gain it at: an elven divine oracle can roll 3 times to see if he hits! And he will probably have many bonuses supplied by other party members.

Orcus's Aura is relevant, but there are trivial ways to defeat this problem, foremost among them the brilliant and under-appreciated Wizard utility power, Resistance.

What makes the power badly designed is that the Rules As Written do not match the Rules As Intended. As written, you can affect the target with additional damage. As written, you can bypass the built-in limiter on the power and make it last for five minutes with sufficient healing. I'm almost certain this was not intended.

And unlike most other examples of this in the 4E rulebook, this will have a bad effect on game play as well, turning what should be a dramatic battle into an exceptionally dull one. It is a badly designed power, and it needs errata. GMs need to houserule it out of the box, if their players spot and use this trick. Shoudn't have made it past playtesting.

(EDIT: Just figured the following. With a power that grants regeneration x, you will get an average number of rounds of stunlock equal to 269 / (20 - x). This assumes a Cleric with a Con of 10, Wis of 28, and no additional healing except his own healing words (so no paladins, warlords or healing potions). I have also not figured the Wisdom modifier for Healing Lore into the regen figure, because this will be on a case-by-case basis.

With a regen of 10 (trivial, holy wrath lvl 19 Cleric Daily exploit), you get 26 rounds of stunlock and damage. With a regen of 15 (which you could get from holy wrath dependent on the GMs decision on how Healing Lore interacts with regeneration powers), you get the full 50 rounds. Add in healing from other sources, and your number of rounds will also increase (by an amount equal to the [amount of healing] / (20 - x)).

Even with a regen of 10 attainable by a non-demigod, this power is still far too effective and far too dull, and badly designed for all the reasons outlined above.)

 

[Runestar]

It is a little like 3e save-or-dies. On a failed attack, you have wasted a spell slot and achieved absolutely nothing. On a successful attack, you win the fight (or come close enough, at least). I thought 4e was designed to avoid such lopsided events.

You can't say that it is balanced because the cleric can miss. Let us assume that 10 games each run a demigod cleric who plan to use said combo on a regular basis (or as regular as daily powers can get). Some are bound to hit, some will miss. What are you going to do about those who do hit? The downside of one not hitting is irrelevant if he did not miss...

And on a side note, how high can one crank his cleric's attack roll at epic lvs? People say that the spell is wasted if you miss, so clearly the next logical step is to hedge your bets by ensuring that your chances of not hitting with seal of binding is as low as possible. What ways are there? Preferably, you will miss only on a natural 1, but I will take the best I can get.

 

[alanpossible]

I've always had a simple policy to alleviate such problems:
"Whatever the players can do, the monsters can do as well (and vice-versa)"

If my players keep using an "unstoppable" combo, they can be pretty sure the monsters will be using that same combo next session (I give them to next session so they get a small reward for some clever combo).

With this in mind, my players tend to be relatively fair when it comes to dealing with combos that might be interpreted as broken. If they don't feel the combo is broken, they're happy for it to be used on them

 

[ac_noj]

I've always had a simple policy to alleviate such problems:
"Whatever the players can do, the monsters can do as well (and vice-versa)"

If my players keep using an "unstoppable" combo, they can be pretty sure the monsters will be using that same combo next session (I give them to next session so they get a small reward for some clever combo).

Nice system, but this power is a lot less broken against groups. Either stunning or reducing the caster to half HP will prevent them from sustaining it.
On the same vein, you could combo your solo monster with other monsters that can stun.

 

[Runestar]

If my players keep using an "unstoppable" combo, they can be pretty sure the monsters will be using that same combo next session (I give them to next session so they get a small reward for some clever combo).

So what....all 5 of your enemies are going to suddenly possess obscene regeneration and the seal of binding power in the next encounter?

Seems to me like the cure is worse than the disease...

 

[alanpossible]

Very good point.
But conversely, a solo has far more hit points to burn than a PC, so each PC is taken down in fewer rounds than a solo would be. Also, is there any reason why it has to be a solo, rather than a couple of elites or 5 normals? I don't see minions working well with this spell

In practice, I think it would still work. By its very nature, it's going to cause the solo to focus on a single PC with an unavoidable attack every round that prevents the player from taking actions. Is anyone going to want to be that PC?

The policy is far more of a deterrent than anything else. My players seem to be well trained to respond to "heh, okay, cool combo. Let's see if we can sort it out so it isn't so broken for next session?". As the DM, I have the flexibility they don't and if something is broken, I can exploit it better than they can.

 

[MarkChevallier]

I think somehow upping the threat of an enemy to match the threat of a clearly broken combo is NOT the way to go (as well as being implicitly against the 4e assumption that players =/= monsters). As for the enemy "focusing fire" on the offending PC, this might well be unrealistic and poor play if the enemy has no way to know of the power.

The way to fix this power is to prevent any healing while it is operating: then it will last, at most, 4-5 rounds or so. This is a simple houserule, but a houserule is needed to fix this particular power.

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Runestar, as for the to-hit bonus:

Elven Divine Oracle Demigod Cleric 30 with Wis 28:

Level +15
Wis +9
Implement +6
Moradin's Resolve (feat + minor action) +2
---------------
Total +32

Every time you roll an attack with SoB, you roll twice and take the best. If both still miss, you go with Elven Accuracy for a third reroll.

Chances of beating Orcus's Will defence of 49 with no other assistance and assuming that you take no other actions: 48.8%

With a +2 bonus on top of this (from Combat Advantage, for example), your chance becomes 65.7%. To get to the fairly certain to-hit chance of 95.7%, you need to get a total of +42 (or lower Orcus's defences by a similar amount).

Do this with a TacLord Battle Captain (assume Int of 26) giving you +4 to attack on action surges, plus using Battle Inspiration for a +8 power bonus to attack rolls, plus giving you +2 untyped attack bonus on 1st round, plus giving you +1 untyped attack bonus when he spends an action point. Total bonuses supplied: +15. This makes your attack roll +47 (not including any Combat Advantage), and your chance of success 99.9875%

There are a lot of ways to give penalties to defences: most of them require attack rolls, though. On the plus side, they are untyped and hence stack. A lot of potential -2s, including some the Cleric can lay down before Action Surging SoB. Probably the best in this situation is the Warlock power Dreadful Word (as done by a Starlock). It will knock off around 8-9 points from Orcus's defences, but relies itself on an attack vs Will. Because they are by nature uncertain, I don't think you can include any of these penalties in the calculations (plus you don't have to with the TacLord companion above).