pkt77242
Explorer
Well since he would have to save a few weeks for the starter set, he could just wait to download Basic once they update it with monsters and magical items in a few weeks.
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D&D 5E Second guessing WOTC
- Thread starter mips42
- Start date
Well since he would have to save a few weeks for the starter set, he could just wait to download Basic once they update it with monsters and magical items in a few weeks.
Indeed. There's a LOT of research into price points. Even a tiny price change can have a large effect.
mechascorpio
First Post
I love the Starter Set and have felt that the combination of price point and choice of components was very smart, however...
I was assuming that a big part of the strategy was to get the game onto the shelves of the big box stores like WalMart, Target and Toys-R-Us. Really hit the masses for that impulse purchase, either in the Toys/Games section, or on those separate shelves where the CCGs are kept.
But the game is not there. It's at the few local game stores in small quantities. It's at Barnes & Noble and Books-A-Million, which is big, but still just a small segment of the market and not so price-sensitive. It seems to me that the real homerun is that price at those stores for those masses of new players. Otherwise, I have to wonder why WotC didn't put out an MSRP $25 or $30 product with some of the shiny chrome that has been in recent similar sets, and in the PF BB (theater-of-the-mind or not). Even the 4E Essentials Starter box managed to hit the shelves at WalMart and Target.
Based on the channels where the product has ended up, it seems they are mostly appealing to a market that already knows what D&D is, may even understand the different editions, and could have given them a "shinier" Starter Set for a few more bucks. Again, don't get me wrong, I love the Starter Set. So many hours of fun there for so few dollars. But I can't help but admire the appeal of previous sets or the PF BB, even though I would never have any interest in PF beyond that box.
OTOH, if I see the Starter Set at Target or Walmart within the next few weeks, I'll take it all back.
I was assuming that a big part of the strategy was to get the game onto the shelves of the big box stores like WalMart, Target and Toys-R-Us. Really hit the masses for that impulse purchase, either in the Toys/Games section, or on those separate shelves where the CCGs are kept.
But the game is not there. It's at the few local game stores in small quantities. It's at Barnes & Noble and Books-A-Million, which is big, but still just a small segment of the market and not so price-sensitive. It seems to me that the real homerun is that price at those stores for those masses of new players. Otherwise, I have to wonder why WotC didn't put out an MSRP $25 or $30 product with some of the shiny chrome that has been in recent similar sets, and in the PF BB (theater-of-the-mind or not). Even the 4E Essentials Starter box managed to hit the shelves at WalMart and Target.
Based on the channels where the product has ended up, it seems they are mostly appealing to a market that already knows what D&D is, may even understand the different editions, and could have given them a "shinier" Starter Set for a few more bucks. Again, don't get me wrong, I love the Starter Set. So many hours of fun there for so few dollars. But I can't help but admire the appeal of previous sets or the PF BB, even though I would never have any interest in PF beyond that box.
OTOH, if I see the Starter Set at Target or Walmart within the next few weeks, I'll take it all back.
Still doesn't get you an adventure. You're talking about someone who doesn't know about D&D - that means they don't know what's supposed to be in a dungeon. There may be monsters, but no idea of adventure structure in Basic. What are these fictional people supposed to *do*?
transtemporal
Explorer
Despite my griping, I didn't mind Essentials too much. I just thought it tried to conflate too many changes, revisions and errata and confused the message about DnD - is it errata? an entirely new version? is that the new "core book set" (since most of the powers and classes that came out of essentials were superior to core)? what happens to the old books? which parts of the old books are still relevant?
Hmm, not sure what I was talking about with the starter sets. Maybe the wine talking? lol
Exactly. Plus also, hey, he/she wouldn't do that. See a $12 boxed set in a big store, decide it's too expensive, go home and extensively research the subject and then download the Basic rules, all because he liked the picture of the dragon on the cover? Not gonna happen. The Basic rules won't be downaoded in the first instance by any newbie to RPGs unless there's an experienced player urging them to do so - at which point the boxed set is redundant. The ultimate player recruitment asset - a mentor - is in place and actively working.
JeffB
Legend
well, I can give some real world experience with complete newbies and the PFBB.
When the BB came out in 2011. I was able to get my son and some of his friends to start playing on a regular basis, after unsuccessfully using other basic sets (3.5, mentzer, 4e). The Kids were all 11/12 yo at the time.
The things they liked were the books...the art. The PFBB was pretty and they loved to page through the books (not read them, just look, like it was a Playboy
) . They had fun creating their own characters. And they loved playing the intro dungeon. but by the time level 3 rolled around, they were frustrated. The Character sheets, leveling up, tracking skills, picking and using feats, modifiers for this and that in combat, as well as the pawns and grid caused massive analysis paralysis, and the games would drag. As a DM I loved its presentation and Moldvay-esque utility. I STILL do. It is a fantastic piece of work. I like that it gave you a small intro adventure, and then helped you create your own with the map, and some plot hooks. It is probably a better DM teaching tool, than a a player teaching tool, IMO. Ultimately As a DM, I was so disappointed that Paizo did not support the game with adventures, but instead steered you into the full blown game. Converting/whittling down existing PF Books and adventures were more work than creating my own. I understand their business perspective, but I still did not care for how it was handled, speaking as a consumer and Dad running a kids game.
So on a whim after we finished CotE (which dragged on for a few months because of combat analysis paralysis) I ran a OD&D/SW game with a couple of watered down PF feats/abilities for each character, no grid or minis, a homebrew adventure in the OGB FR, and that was what set the hook. It was a fantastic session, and they really got into the game, and the characters, and the story, and loved how fast paced and straightforward everything was.
Over these 3 years we have played some 4e (my own simplified ToTM style game somewhat like 13th Age), C&C, DCCRPG, straight up Holmes OD&D, 13th Age proper, a few NEXT playtests, and even CoC and RQ (Ballastor's Barracks was a real fun time). They have had fun with all of them. But some were much better than others, and we always gravitate back to OD&D/S&W. The Kids like story,colorful NPCs (including my bad acting/voices), setting, simple rules, light character sheets, TotM quick combat, and mysteries/puzzles. They have absolutely zero desire to learn how to min max, optimize, game the system, or even read the rules of any of the games, lol. FWIW, all these kids get high grades in all subjects. everyone of them is a A/B student. Like a board game or the Wii, they have a blast on game day, and then go home and look forward to the next gameday. It's very casual for them, but on gameday, they are on point.
So in our situation, it was the double edged sword. PFBB got them hooked on the idea of RPGs, and I am very grateful for it. But the system was too much like work (for me too). About a year ago, I had a hankering to run a particular PF module, and I asked to revisit the old BB characters/game, and was met with a round of boos,and requests for me to convert the adventure to something else. I tried putting the BB characters on notebook cards, eliminating things that were unnecessary to ease the busy-ness of the character sheet, but ultimately, they just did not want to deal with the system :shrug:
Had we only PFBB as our system option, I would not be running a game for them tomorrow . In fact we are running Lost Mine using characters created with Basic, and thrown into my Known World/Nerath/Nentir Vale mashup homebrew. They are excited about 5e, liked the playtest (more than me, I ran the Sunless Citadel several sessions, and I felt it was pretty blah, but it was the module I think, not the rules) and 2 kids have actually gone out and made their first purchase EVER since we started to play. Just some dice, but that is a good sign I am a bit miffed there is so much combat, but I think there is tons of adventure potential there. I think the Starter Set is a much better player product, with more adventure bang for the buck,but not nearly as good of a DM teaching tool as the PFBB is.
That is my/our experience anyway.
When the BB came out in 2011. I was able to get my son and some of his friends to start playing on a regular basis, after unsuccessfully using other basic sets (3.5, mentzer, 4e). The Kids were all 11/12 yo at the time.
The things they liked were the books...the art. The PFBB was pretty and they loved to page through the books (not read them, just look, like it was a Playboy
) . They had fun creating their own characters. And they loved playing the intro dungeon. but by the time level 3 rolled around, they were frustrated. The Character sheets, leveling up, tracking skills, picking and using feats, modifiers for this and that in combat, as well as the pawns and grid caused massive analysis paralysis, and the games would drag. As a DM I loved its presentation and Moldvay-esque utility. I STILL do. It is a fantastic piece of work. I like that it gave you a small intro adventure, and then helped you create your own with the map, and some plot hooks. It is probably a better DM teaching tool, than a a player teaching tool, IMO. Ultimately As a DM, I was so disappointed that Paizo did not support the game with adventures, but instead steered you into the full blown game. Converting/whittling down existing PF Books and adventures were more work than creating my own. I understand their business perspective, but I still did not care for how it was handled, speaking as a consumer and Dad running a kids game.So on a whim after we finished CotE (which dragged on for a few months because of combat analysis paralysis) I ran a OD&D/SW game with a couple of watered down PF feats/abilities for each character, no grid or minis, a homebrew adventure in the OGB FR, and that was what set the hook. It was a fantastic session, and they really got into the game, and the characters, and the story, and loved how fast paced and straightforward everything was.
Over these 3 years we have played some 4e (my own simplified ToTM style game somewhat like 13th Age), C&C, DCCRPG, straight up Holmes OD&D, 13th Age proper, a few NEXT playtests, and even CoC and RQ (Ballastor's Barracks was a real fun time). They have had fun with all of them. But some were much better than others, and we always gravitate back to OD&D/S&W. The Kids like story,colorful NPCs (including my bad acting/voices), setting, simple rules, light character sheets, TotM quick combat, and mysteries/puzzles. They have absolutely zero desire to learn how to min max, optimize, game the system, or even read the rules of any of the games, lol. FWIW, all these kids get high grades in all subjects. everyone of them is a A/B student. Like a board game or the Wii, they have a blast on game day, and then go home and look forward to the next gameday. It's very casual for them, but on gameday, they are on point.
So in our situation, it was the double edged sword. PFBB got them hooked on the idea of RPGs, and I am very grateful for it. But the system was too much like work (for me too). About a year ago, I had a hankering to run a particular PF module, and I asked to revisit the old BB characters/game, and was met with a round of boos,and requests for me to convert the adventure to something else. I tried putting the BB characters on notebook cards, eliminating things that were unnecessary to ease the busy-ness of the character sheet, but ultimately, they just did not want to deal with the system :shrug:
Had we only PFBB as our system option, I would not be running a game for them tomorrow . In fact we are running Lost Mine using characters created with Basic, and thrown into my Known World/Nerath/Nentir Vale mashup homebrew. They are excited about 5e, liked the playtest (more than me, I ran the Sunless Citadel several sessions, and I felt it was pretty blah, but it was the module I think, not the rules) and 2 kids have actually gone out and made their first purchase EVER since we started to play. Just some dice, but that is a good sign
I am a bit miffed there is so much combat, but I think there is tons of adventure potential there. I think the Starter Set is a much better player product, with more adventure bang for the buck,but not nearly as good of a DM teaching tool as the PFBB is. That is my/our experience anyway.
jodyjohnson
Adventurer
I think WotC wants to sell the game as something you can do with a few friends, an adventure, some characters, and some dice.
When I see the shelf of Pathfinder at the store, what I see is a game that wants me to get thousands of pages of rules, pawns, and flipmats.
Even if we know it doesn't need all that.
Even once everything else is out, you still only need Basic, and an adventure. Whether that adventure is produced by WotC or yourself.
The self-contained nature of the adventures reinforces that.
There is an ongoing assumption that WotC will do the same as they have last 3 editions and that Pathfinder has now repeated.
Yet Mearls keeps saying they don't want to do that, but rather do adventures, and sparse supplements.
The mantra is the brand not the game.
When I see the shelf of Pathfinder at the store, what I see is a game that wants me to get thousands of pages of rules, pawns, and flipmats.
Even if we know it doesn't need all that.
Even once everything else is out, you still only need Basic, and an adventure. Whether that adventure is produced by WotC or yourself.
The self-contained nature of the adventures reinforces that.
There is an ongoing assumption that WotC will do the same as they have last 3 editions and that Pathfinder has now repeated.
Yet Mearls keeps saying they don't want to do that, but rather do adventures, and sparse supplements.
The mantra is the brand not the game.
