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D&D 5E Sell me on 5th…

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I rarely encountered the problems most people complained about with it. My takeaway on that was that it was less a problem with the system and more to do with people being willing to abuse it..and being allowed to.*
More than a little surprised to hear that you never had issues with the class tiers. Even just a smart player can make an end run of the game with stuff like basic PHB-only Druid, Cleric, and Wizard. (Keep in mind, Natural Spell is PHB.) It takes dedicated, significant optimization just to squeeze an effective character out of Fighter or Monk.

Also, CR is a bad joke.
 

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SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself
It's kind of funny because Danny talks about being a 3x fan, and I just jumped from 3x to 5e for the same campaign and found it to be a much better time. So maybe that's an indication that he shouldn't change? Many of the things I was grateful to no longer have to deal with seem to be things that are a strong design element of 3x play.

But there are very few games that I wouldn't give a try, even if I found they weren't for me, so I would definitely suggest giving 5e a chance.
 

Because none of my circle of gamers is running 5th, AFAIK.
Not surprised given your tastes. 5th is in my experience mostly good for a veteran DM with new or casual players.
I rarely encountered the problems most people complained about with it. My takeaway on that was that it was less a problem with the system and more to do with people being willing to abuse it..and being allowed to.*
My problem with this statement is that you do not need to abuse D&D 3.5 to break it. You just need to take obvious options and use them in an obvious way.

Yes you can abuse 3.5. Abuses like Pun-Pun, a Supreme Diplomancer, anything involving the Ur-Priest, the Nar Demonbinder, and the Mystic Theurge prestige classes is abuse, as is much much more.

But you know some things that aren't abuse so much as simple thematics and smart in character choices using just the PHB?
  • A cleric or druid taking Craft Wand and creating enough Wands of Cure Light Wounds to top everyone up after each fight.
  • An Aggressively Hegmonizing Ursine Swarm; a thematic bear druid that's wild shaped into a bear, has a bear companion, and uses Natural Spell to Summon Nature's Ally for bears. Any two of which should be able to tag team a fighter
  • A wizard who uses their downtime and their share of the loot with the feat all wizards get at level 1 to create a loose leaf ring binder full of scrolls and have low level utility spells basically whenever needed. And remember wizards don't spend money on weapons or armour.
  • The same wizard who doesn't prepare utility spells because they have scrolls and uses AoE conjuration spells (thus ignoring spell resistance and magic immunity) and picks the target's low save based on knowledge and descriptions (Glitterdust for Will, Web for Ref, Stinking Cloud for Fort, and Black Tentacles for grapple) and renders a lot of fights trivial.
  • Just for a cash comparison a Wand of Cure Light Wounds with 50 charges costs 750GP (or 1 day, 375GP, and I think 30XP to make), a level 1 utility scroll costs 25GP (or 1 day, 12.5GP, and I think 1XP to make) - and a masterwork sword costs 300GP or 66GP and weeks to make, while a +1 sword is 2300GP
I would argue none of these are abusive and all of them are simple, thematic, and using basic core abilities that are in the PHB for their intended purposes in a way that can easily be done naively or even as in character choices. And all of them warp the game.
 

ECMO3

Hero
More than a little surprised to hear that you never had issues with the class tiers. Even just a smart player can make an end run of the game with stuff like basic PHB-only Druid, Cleric, and Wizard. (Keep in mind, Natural Spell is PHB.) It takes dedicated, significant optimization just to squeeze an effective character out of Fighter or Monk.

Also, CR is a bad joke.

High level Monks are pretty bad ass, above 14th level it is very easy to make an effective Monk.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
But you know some things that aren't abuse so much as simple thematics and smart in character choices using just the PHB?
  • A cleric or druid taking Craft Wand and creating enough Wands of Cure Light Wounds to top everyone up after each fight.
Requires having a player who wants to spend TIME and XP crafting wands. Ditto other crafting feats. We never had that. No joke, I may have played one of the only crafting casters in our group when I played the Geomancer who Brewed Potions by growing tubers in his body (a la 1990s Swamp Thing).
  • An Aggressively Hegmonizing Ursine Swarm; a thematic bear druid that's wild shaped into a bear, has a bear companion, and uses Natural Spell to Summon Nature's Ally for bears. Any two of which should be able to tag team a fighter
Nobody did that. We had a couple of Druids who summoned critters, but never one so focused.
  • A wizard who uses their downtime and their share of the loot with the feat all wizards get at level 1 to create a loose leaf ring binder full of scrolls and have low level utility spells basically whenever needed. And remember wizards don't spend money on weapons or armour.
See Craft Wand answer.

There’s one guy in the group who has been playing MU/Wizards since I met him back in the mid-1980s. Arguably, his spell list list for each one is as optimized as a given campaign & edition allows. He’s also a math wiz (now teacher) who crunches numbers in his head better than some can with devices.

He has NEVER had any of his PCs craft any item beyond a staff for his über AD&D Magic User.

He refused so spend time & XP to craft.
  • The same wizard who doesn't prepare utility spells because they have scrolls and uses AoE conjuration spells (thus ignoring spell resistance and magic immunity) and picks the target's low save based on knowledge and descriptions (Glitterdust for Will, Web for Ref, Stinking Cloud for Fort, and Black Tentacles for grapple) and renders a lot of fights trivial.
Our Wizard specialist DID use those spells, but also economized his casting. He only cast spells to tip a fight’s odds in the party’s favor unless/until it was clear more spell casting was absolutely necessary to win. When he wasn’t casting, his characters would use whatever staves, darts or daggers the had equipped.

I can only recall a few instances when his mages were out of spells when the party rested because it was incredibly rare. He didn’t want to be caught spell-less if the party was ambushed while resting.

In addition, I will point out that the various DMs he played under in those decades were pretty familiar with his tactics, and were willing to field opponents who were either prepared to counter/withstand those tactics OR used them themselves. Sauce for goose, sauce for gander.
  • Just for a cash comparison a Wand of Cure Light Wounds with 50 charges costs 750GP (or 1 day, 375GP, and I think 30XP to make), a level 1 utility scroll costs 25GP (or 1 day, 12.5GP, and I think 1XP to make) - and a masterwork sword costs 300GP or 66GP and weeks to make, while a +1 sword is 2300GP
See above.

Now, you could argue that we didn’t see these crafting tricks because of our buddy the Wizard slut. But that would erroneously assume nobody else played casters, which isn’t the case.

I, for one, almost always included a casting class in my multiclassed characters. And other players tried solo-classed Druids, Clerics, and others.

Almost nobody’s heroic D&D character concepts involved making magic items of any kind.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Not surprised given your tastes. 5th is in my experience mostly good for a veteran DM with new or casual players.

My problem with this statement is that you do not need to abuse D&D 3.5 to break it. You just need to take obvious options and use them in an obvious way.

Yes you can abuse 3.5. Abuses like Pun-Pun, a Supreme Diplomancer, anything involving the Ur-Priest, the Nar Demonbinder, and the Mystic Theurge prestige classes is abuse, as is much much more.

But you know some things that aren't abuse so much as simple thematics and smart in character choices using just the PHB?
  • A cleric or druid taking Craft Wand and creating enough Wands of Cure Light Wounds to top everyone up after each fight.
  • An Aggressively Hegmonizing Ursine Swarm; a thematic bear druid that's wild shaped into a bear, has a bear companion, and uses Natural Spell to Summon Nature's Ally for bears. Any two of which should be able to tag team a fighter
  • A wizard who uses their downtime and their share of the loot with the feat all wizards get at level 1 to create a loose leaf ring binder full of scrolls and have low level utility spells basically whenever needed. And remember wizards don't spend money on weapons or armour.
  • The same wizard who doesn't prepare utility spells because they have scrolls and uses AoE conjuration spells (thus ignoring spell resistance and magic immunity) and picks the target's low save based on knowledge and descriptions (Glitterdust for Will, Web for Ref, Stinking Cloud for Fort, and Black Tentacles for grapple) and renders a lot of fights trivial.
  • Just for a cash comparison a Wand of Cure Light Wounds with 50 charges costs 750GP (or 1 day, 375GP, and I think 30XP to make), a level 1 utility scroll costs 25GP (or 1 day, 12.5GP, and I think 1XP to make) - and a masterwork sword costs 300GP or 66GP and weeks to make, while a +1 sword is 2300GP
I would argue none of these are abusive and all of them are simple, thematic, and using basic core abilities that are in the PHB for their intended purposes in a way that can easily be done naively or even as in character choices. And all of them warp the game.
I'm not convinced Wands of Cure Light Wounds were an intended purpose of 3e.
 

Requires having a player who wants to spend TIME and XP crafting wands. Ditto other crafting feats. We never had that. No joke, I may have played one of the only crafting casters in our group when I played the Geomancer who Brewed Potions by growing tubers in his body (a la 1990s Swamp Thing).
YMMV. The only class I've played in all of 3.5, 4e, and 5e is artificer. (For the record: 3.5 Artificer: incredibly broken and infusions of Bane weapon should have never been allowed as the tip of the iceberg, 4e artificer fails at the class fantasy (rare for 4e), 5e artificer: undercooked and underpowered, with battlesmith being the only decent one although artillerist works in some campaigns).
Nobody did that. We had a couple of Druids who summoned critters, but never one so focused.
You don't need to be that focused, although the only reason I didn't play the wolfpack druid in 3.5 (bears are stronger) is wildshape comes so late. 3.5 breaks in my hands

As for summoning, one of the only two PF1e characters I've played was a summoner who used their Eidolon of their dead sister as a scout. It looked interesting - but again using only core options and with my instincts the only time a PC died while I was there was a Darwin Award, while we lost one every session I missed. In MMOs I normally reach for pet classes.

Which reminds me - fun 5e character I never quite got to play: Rex. Rex thought that every pack needed a human, and when theirs died he was going to try and take on the role; Rex was a literal golden retriever with brains and temperament to match. (Wild shape at level 2 rather than 5 opens things up a lot)
He refused so spend time & XP to craft.
Probably just as well... But xp costs are trivial.
Our Wizard specialist DID use those spells, but also economized his casting. He only cast spells to tip a fight’s odds in the party’s favor unless/until it was clear more spell casting was absolutely necessary to win. When he wasn’t casting, his characters would use whatever staves, darts or daggers the had equipped.
Which can be easy ... or even more OP as with that sort of endurance it's an incredibly different session when they are there and when they aren't.
Almost nobody’s heroic D&D character concepts involved making magic items of any kind.
You got lucky. As I say, literal core option and all wizards get given scribe spell

Do your groups even buy wands of CLW?
 


Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Which reminds me - fun 5e character I never quite got to play: Rex. Rex thought that every pack needed a human, and when theirs died he was going to try and take on the role; Rex was a literal golden retriever with brains and temperament to match. (Wild shape at level 2 rather than 5 opens things up a lot)
Nice!
Probably just as well... But xp costs are trivial.
For you? Maybe. But this guy hoards game resources like a dragon does gold, XP included. I don’t think he even cast a spell with XP costs more than a couple times in all the years I’ve known him.

In one of our later campaigns, we were going through the RttToEE storyline. He was playing- SURPRISE!- a single classed wizard. The PC I started the game with was a Diviner/Fighter/Ranger/Spellsword inspired by Indiana Jones (including whip). I suggested that, as the only 2 wizards in the party, we should probably scribe all of our known spells in each PCs spellbook. That way, if one were lost, it would be easier to replace. Plus it would expand each caster’s repertoire.

“You don’t have any spells I want.” End of story.

(I retired that character mid-campaign. Even though he was fun and made key contributions, we lost the players running the main cleric & Druid to RW issues. Odds of completing RttToEE with only a Ftr/(1st level) Cleric are slim. Hence the Geomancer, who was a hell of a healer.)
Do your groups even buy wands of CLW?
We bought all kinds of things, CLW wands included…when they were available. It was a universal truth for all who DMed in our group: just because something existed in the game, it didn’t follow that it was available in the campaign, the country, the city or the store your characters were in.

Same thing for prices, which varied with location and availability.

My aforementioned Spellsword wanted a Dire Pick, preferably suitable for enchantment. None were for sale anywhere in our regular, but the best blacksmith in the area said he’d try to figure out how to make one. The PC was retired before the blacksmith succeeded.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
More than a little surprised to hear that you never had issues with the class tiers. Even just a smart player can make an end run of the game with stuff like basic PHB-only Druid, Cleric, and Wizard.
You have to have someone who is both willing to dominate the game AND being allowed to do so.

In earlier editions, spell acquisition had a slightly randomized factor to it. You might WANT Spell X when you level up, but there were no guarantees you’d get it. That tended to affect any PC’s accumulation of more powerful spells. In a campaign that started in AD&D and got translated into 2nd then 3Ed, and finally 3.5Ed, there was very little overlap in the higher end of the major casters’ spellbooks.

3.X removed that guardrail.

But nearly everyone I’ve played D&D with started with those edition-based guardrails, and either consciously limited themselves, didn’t realize they were limiting themselves, or the DM imposed those mechanics from older editions into 3.5.

Add in a group of players who- almost as a rule- only cast spells when necessary as opposed to going nova wherever, whenever, and you just don’t see casters simply dominating the game.

It takes dedicated, significant optimization just to squeeze an effective character out of Fighter or Monk.

I would say it depends on your definition of effective.

As for whether it requires a bit more thought than designing a spellcaster? I honestly can’t say. I put a LOT of thought into almost all of my 3.X PCs. How much depended on how inspired I was by all the factors contributing to creating PCs for a given campaign.
 

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