Sense Surroundings rule question

[Eloy]

I still have some difficulty understanding how Sense Surroundings (application of the Use the Force skill) works. Can anyone please help me resolve the following example?

1) A jedi who has access to Sense Surroundings as part of Use the Force skill, enters a room which is in total darkness. The jedi has no light sources. There are 2 bounty hunters in the room wearing darkvision goggles. Bounty Hunter A is standing in the open (i.e. if the room were lit, bounty hunter would be line of sight of the jedi) and Bounty Hunter B is hidden behind a computer console, which grants him total cover. For argument’s sake, let us say there is no surprise round (Bounty hunters are holding their actions, or aiming, or whatever)
Jedi wins initiative, and uses a swift action to activate Sense surroundings… What happense then? How does he locate the opponents and when can he attack them?

2) What if instead of 2 bounty hunters, there are two sith apprentices, one in the open, the other behind the computer, and both are trying to conceal their presence in the Force (to oppose Sense Force checks). Does a use of the Sense Force skill help the Jedi find the sith?

3) What if there are no bounty hunters or sith, but instead, there is an open 3 meter deep pit several meters in front of the jedi. Can he detect the presence of the pit with Sense surroundings? What if the pit is covered, instead of open?

Thanks a lot for your help!

 

[-Archangel-]

My take on this situation would be:
1) This Jedi is to say it plainly ed. Sense Surrounding cannot ignore total concealment. But he can still get pass perception check if he can beat the enemy's stealth+10. But the jedi still gets a -5 on all attacks and his force powers that depend on seeing the target fail.
By using sense he can ignore concealment and possible total cover. But he still needs to spend a standard action to notice anyone. If he does not actively detect targets, once the enemies decide to move or attack the Jedi gets a opposed Perception check as a reaction.

2) Detecting force users might tell him there are other force users close but will not give him their exact location in the room.

3) He can detect the pit. GM sets the DC and the Jedi gets the -10 penalty to the Perception check because of total concealment that the pit has.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

I'd go the opposite direction, and say that by using Sense Surroundings, the Jedi is negating the condition that would provide total concealment (the darkness). In the first example, he'd have to hit a higher DC to spot the hunter that has total cover, but with a successful UtF check, he'd be able to 'see' the hunter that's standing out in the open just fine.

Against the Sith, the only thing Sense Force would do is let the Jedi know that there are two Force-users, but unless he specifically stated he was looking for ones with Dark Side points (which per the October 2008 errata/clarification update, you can now do with a Use the Force check), he just knows there are "two Force-using individuals in that direction not too far from me," but not exactly where they are. That's assuming his Use the Force check beats theirs if they are trying to hide (which can be done as a reaction to the Jedi making his UtF check to Sense Force).

As for the pit, if he makes his Use the Force check, he can see it just fine with no Perception check required, since the concealment condition has been negated.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I allow the sense surroundings application of the Use the Force skill to defeat total concealment, though by the strictest reading of the rules would not allow such. So...

1. The jedi walks into the darkened room. He uses the sense surroundings application of the Use the Force skill. If his skill check result is 15, but not 20, then there is no change. The jedi still can't see either of the bounty hunters. If his skill check result is 20 or higher, then from that point on (I actually make them spend another Swift action and make another check after a number of rounds equal to their Wisdom modifier, minimum 1), it is as if the jedi were in a regularly lit room. Likewise, the bounty hunter that is standing behind the computer console gains no benefit to his Stealth from his cover (though the object is still in the way in the case of attacks made against him).

2. The jedi might spend a Full action to use the Sense Force application of Use the Force. In that case, you'd compare his Use the Force check to each check made by the two sith. If the sith's check's were higher, then the jedi would not sense any force-users nearby. If the Jedi's check equaled or exceeded that of one or both sith, then he would sense the direction and relative distance (very near) to the sith. Which would, I suppose, help him in attempting to choose the correct square to attack, except that the jedi is now all out of actions until the beginning of his next turn, due to having spent a Full action.

3. The jedi attempting to sense the pit would check just as if there were bounty hunters in the room, noticing the pit if his Use the Force check result equaled at least DC 20.

 

[-Archangel-]

I'd go the opposite direction, and say that by using Sense Surroundings, the Jedi is negating the condition that would provide total concealment (the darkness). In the first example, he'd have to hit a higher DC to spot the hunter that has total cover, but with a successful UtF check, he'd be able to 'see' the hunter that's standing out in the open just fine.

Against the Sith, the only thing Sense Force would do is let the Jedi know that there are two Force-users, but unless he specifically stated he was looking for ones with Dark Side points (which per the October 2008 errata/clarification update, you can now do with a Use the Force check), he just knows there are "two Force-using individuals in that direction not too far from me," but not exactly where they are. That's assuming his Use the Force check beats theirs if they are trying to hide (which can be done as a reaction to the Jedi making his UtF check to Sense Force).

As for the pit, if he makes his Use the Force check, he can see it just fine with no Perception check required, since the concealment condition has been negated.

What you are saying is based on the idea that Sense Surrounding ignores TOTAL concealment which it does not. It only ignores Concealment.
It is like Low-light vision and darkvision. Low light vision ignores concealment that comes from low light conditions, while darkvision ignores total concealment that comes from total darkness.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

What you are saying is based on the idea that Sense Surrounding ignores TOTAL concealment which it does not. It only ignores Concealment.
It is like Low-light vision and darkvision. Low light vision ignores concealment that comes from low light conditions, while darkvision ignores total concealment that comes from total darkness.

Like Silverbane said, by a strict reading of the rules, Sense Surroundings wouldn't ignore the total concealment (which in the book is described as having line of effect but not line of sight to the target) from darkness (which is given as an example of causing total concealment in the same sentence). But if you are using the Force to discern your surroundings instead of your eyes, then it makes little sense for Sense Surroundings to have no effect against conditions of darkness, as the sense that darkness effects (sight) is being bypassed.

What you're saying, while true in the rules as explictly written, is along the same lines as saying someone with the Scout talent that grants total concealment when they have regular concealment would still get the benefit of that total concealment when the condition that granted them regular concealment is nullified, such as being in poor lighting when the other guy has low-light vision.

I'm just choosing to err on behalf of the player instead of trying to screw him over just for trying to use what amounts to a class feature to do something it's intended to do.

 

[-Archangel-]

Like Silverbane said, by a strict reading of the rules, Sense Surroundings wouldn't ignore the total concealment (which in the book is described as having line of effect but not line of sight to the target) from darkness (which is given as an example of causing total concealment in the same sentence). But if you are using the Force to discern your surroundings instead of your eyes, then it makes little sense for Sense Surroundings to have no effect against conditions of darkness, as the sense that darkness effects (sight) is being bypassed.

What you're saying, while true in the rules as explictly written, is along the same lines as saying someone with the Scout talent that grants total concealment when they have regular concealment would still get the benefit of that total concealment when the condition that granted them regular concealment is nullified, such as being in poor lighting when the other guy has low-light vision.

I'm just choosing to err on behalf of the player instead of trying to screw him over just for trying to use what amounts to a class feature to do something it's intended to do.

There is no strict reading of the rules. The rules are pretty clear on this. They make a difference between Concealment and Total concealment just as they make a difference between Cover and Total cover. If it was an error, the developers would have changed it by now as well as talk about it on the official forums (they are pretty active there and there Are 2 big erratas and clarifications out by now).
So just be fair and admit it is your house rule. And in the future where giving advice to others mentions it is your house rule.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

There is no strict reading of the rules. The rules are pretty clear on this. They make a difference between Concealment and Total concealment just as they make a difference between Cover and Total cover. If it was an error, the developers would have changed it by now as well as talk about it on the official forums (they are pretty active there and there Are 2 big erratas and clarifications out by now).
So just be fair and admit it is your house rule. And in the future where giving advice to others mentions it is your house rule.

Technically, anytime a GM makes a judgment call on how a rule should work, it's a house rule.

As for no "official clarification," of late the only place Rodney really seems to hang out is the WotC forums, where the issue simply hasn't been brought up. ENWorld is a D&D & Pathfinder place, Rodney is WotC's only Star Wars RPG guy and is very busy, you do the math.

Truth be told, you're the first person I've come across that was adamant about Sense Surroundings being bunk against darkness. I see it as being along the same lines as penalizing Marvel Comic's Daredevil with the penalties for total concealment based solely upon a condition of darkness.

The OP asked "how would you as a GM handle this?" I answered with my take on it, just as you did. You don't like my answer, fine. We can just simply agree to disagree on the matter. Like I said before, I'm ruling on behalf of the player wanting to use an inherent ability. You do it your way, I'll run it my way. I do find it funny that you're accusing me of using house rules to answer a question when you did the same thing with the pit, since by what you're saying, the Jedi in that example wouldn't be able to use Sense Surroundings in the first place, because said pit has total concealment.

Of course, if the Jedi in the above example has an activated lightsaber, which provides minimal lighting, it's no longer "total darkness" (read as a complete lack of any and all sources of light), so that would render the whole point moot.

Eloy,
You may just be better off posting this question on the WotC Star Wars boards, where you're bound to get a much better cross-section of guys that have played and run Saga Edition, and maybe even get it noticed by Rodney for consideration. As opposed to just hearing Archy and me go back and forth on this.

 

[-Archangel-]

Well I did mention Official boards, and I do spend some short time there almost every day.

This is not same as Daredevil. Daredevil does not use the Force, he has Blindsight to borrow the term from D&D. Blindsight is not the same as Force Sense Surroundings.

The OP didn't ask what the GMs would do. His question was about how this rules works. He only phrased the question with examples. I am sorry if you do not like the rules as written, but they work that way.
We could only argue if the rules are as intended, but then still I would be adamant about my position because I feel the Jedi should not get free Darkvision (and I am sure they do not in the movies).
Where did I say he cannot use Sense Surrounding because of the pit? LOL.
I said Sense Surrounding would not help him in that case because he cannot penetrate Total Concealment and would still need to make a standard Perception check with a -10 penalty (because of total concealment) against the DC to spot the pit before falling in.
Why am I so against people not saying something is their house rule? Because if you notice a few posts below, I am creating SC setting and defining rules is what I think about the whole time while doing that. So lets call it a professional deformity (although I am not a professional as I am not going to get any money for it)

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Knock yourself out Arcy. Frankly, I don't care enough to bother trying to discuss this in a rationale manner with you, since rational is far from what you are going by the tone, and you're not worth the trouble.