Sexism and presumed sexism in RPGs

[Janx]

In my perception, and I take full responsibility for the fact that it is my perception, it truly has not. I can't open a single RPG book or comic, or play almost any video game, without seeing a large number of sexualized female figures while the male characters are primarily presented as normal characters - eg, as the real people who are not sexualized.

I think you have some fair arguments.

However, on the male side, consider this:

while almost every woman picture in a game looks good, where you consider the males as "normal characters" how many of the men in the games have bellies that extend past their belt line, or love handles.

The majority of those men will be in ripped shape. Which is also not realistic.

What you might be calling sexualization of the women in the pictures and "realistic" for the guys might simply be the artist portraying the prettiest people possible.

Or even sexualization of the men by making them look in good shape. I think we all know what sexy outfits on a woman looks like, and could point to it and determine that outfit wasn't chosen for practicality. I'm betting it's not so simple with guys in art because the standard is different, and there's not really a fashion industry around sexifying guys. But I imagine gay guys probably appreciate looking at the men of gaming art.

And really, my core observation was that in RPGs, say from WotC, they have toned it down. Compared to what women are bombarded with on TV, magazines and fashion, and how much exposure that is influencing young women today, that's your bigger fish to fry. Fix that, and gaming art will probably come into line as it feeds off of what the societal expectations are.

Whereas, if you attack gaming art as your keystone of women's denigration, you're only affecting a niche hobby, and thus a minority of society that should change and improve how it represents and views women.

 

[thewok]

Seriously, that is the message that is being sent with every depiction of a female fantasy character who is being shown as passive and powerless - eg, wearing fake armor that might as well be silk stockings and a bra for all it covers. Just don't do it, please.

It's funny, because all the players I know who end up drawing or describing their characters in extremely revealing attire are women, rather than men. And, Tera, an MMO whose characters literally wear lingerie, seems to be very popular with women.

I'm not sure that it's as black-and-white an issue as a lot of people (strangely, mostly men from my experience) seem to make it.

That said, I think there's room for all kinds of art in fantasy gaming. There's just as much room for Red Sonja as there is for Joan of Arc. A drow/elf/half-elf wizard who prefers to wear provocatively-cut silk gowns is just as valid as a wizard who prefers wooly robes. The entire spectrum of clothing and armor should be represented in RPG artwork--not just one extreme or another.

 

[Kaodi]

Maybe after she is done with this: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games by Anita Sarkeesian — Kickstarter , Anita Sarkeesian should start a new Kickstarter project for Tropes vs. Women in Role-Playing Games .

Here is the first video in her original series:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqJUxqkcnKA&list=PLBBDFEC9F5893C4AF&index=1&feature=plpp_video]#1 The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women) - YouTube[/ame]


I do not necessarily agree with everything in all of her videos, but the Tropes series seems like a good rundown of some come themes.

 

[nedjer]

I think you have some fair arguments.

However, on the male side, consider this:

while almost every woman picture in a game looks good, where you consider the males as "normal characters" how many of the men in the games have bellies that extend past their belt line, or love handles.

The majority of those men will be in ripped shape. Which is also not realistic.

What you might be calling sexualization of the women in the pictures and "realistic" for the guys might simply be the artist portraying the prettiest people possible.

Or even sexualization of the men by making them look in good shape. I think we all know what sexy outfits on a woman looks like, and could point to it and determine that outfit wasn't chosen for practicality. I'm betting it's not so simple with guys in art because the standard is different, and there's not really a fashion industry around sexifying guys. But I imagine gay guys probably appreciate looking at the men of gaming art.

And really, my core observation was that in RPGs, say from WotC, they have toned it down. Compared to what women are bombarded with on TV, magazines and fashion, and how much exposure that is influencing young women today, that's your bigger fish to fry. Fix that, and gaming art will probably come into line as it feeds off of what the societal expectations are.

Whereas, if you attack gaming art as your keystone of women's denigration, you're only affecting a niche hobby, and thus a minority of society that should change and improve how it represents and views women.

Why should RPGs be last in line instead of taking the lead on this. We're not the worst seems a cop-out.

 

[nedjer]

Maybe after she is done with this: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games by Anita Sarkeesian — Kickstarter , Anita Sarkeesian should start a new Kickstarter project for Tropes vs. Women in Role-Playing Games .

Here is the first video in her original series:

[URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women) - YouTube[/URL]


I do not necessarily agree with everything in all of her videos, but the Tropes series seems like a good rundown of some come themes.

This is some of the abuse she had hurled at her. Not for the young or easily offended. Again, suggesting that simply going it's no big deal/ doesn't really affect people is out of touch.

 

[Janx]

Maybe after she is done with this: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games by Anita Sarkeesian — Kickstarter , Anita Sarkeesian should start a new Kickstarter project for Tropes vs. Women in Role-Playing Games .

Here is the first video in her original series:

[URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 The Manic Pixie Dream Girl (Tropes vs. Women) - YouTube[/url]


I do not necessarily agree with everything in all of her videos, but the Tropes series seems like a good rundown of some come themes.

Well, I guess my soul is untroubled by not having seen any of those films.

Ironically, while the video pretty much slams those films as not being a good representation of women, I'd classify all those films as chick-flicks. Movies that women are more likely to watch than guys, or drag their boyfriends to go see.

 

[Kaodi]

Ironically, while the video pretty much slams those films as not being a good representation of women, I'd classify all those films as chick-flicks. Movies that women are more likely to watch than guys, or drag their boyfriends to go see.

I forget which video it was, but there is one in which she mentions the chick flick thing. She also has one video where she does a rundown of Academy Award for Best Picture in the last 50 years, and another for the Bechdel test. Everyone who has not heard of the Bechdel test should definitely watch it.

And lastly, as I wrote my disclaimer, she has one somewhere as well: she enjoys a lot of the things she criticizes. So I do not think it is really the stereotypical, " If you like this you are bad, " sort of accusation.

 

[Janx]

Why should RPGs be last in line instead of taking the lead on this. We're not the worst seems a cop-out.

again, my point seems to be missed.

Women are being trained to be skinnier, dress sexier, wear higher heels, perform like a pornstar and like it. [MENTION=60907]thewok[/MENTION]'s example is a symptom of that.

You're not going to cure that by making RPGs not have pretty or sexy women on the cover.

You're going to cure that by changing what society accepts for the total depiction and expectation of women, which is largely in control of mass media.

Remember when showing a bit of ankle was a turn-on for guys? The hemline has risen so far you can tell what brand of depilatory she uses.

The TV show Farscape had a pretty good line about how Earthlings must want to have sex with children, because they dress them up for that purpose.

Compared to the fashions and mores of today's youth, RPGs are downright enlightened.

 

[nedjer]

again, my point seems to be missed.

Women are being trained to be skinnier, dress sexier, wear higher heels, perform like a pornstar and like it. thewok 's example is a symptom of that.

You're not going to cure that by making RPGs not have pretty or sexy women on the cover.

You're going to cure that by changing what society accepts for the total depiction and expectation of women, which is largely in control of mass media.

Remember when showing a bit of ankle was a turn-on for guys? The hemline has risen so far you can tell what brand of depilatory she uses.

The TV show Farscape had a pretty good line about how Earthlings must want to have sex with children, because they dress them up for that purpose.

Compared to the fashions and mores of today's youth, RPGs are downright enlightened.

Sexualisation through subtle, widely-dispersed media opportunism is arguably more affecting than obvious, in-your-face material. And it's likely effects are unpleasant and very expensive. Dealing with that calls for equally widely-dispersed action.

I, therefore, further object on grounds of being a taxpayer who has to help clean-up after industries in the same way as I pay for some of the 40% of hospital treatment spent on alcohol-related injuries.

 

[nedjer]

Done with the moaning

Practical reason - variety. The current enthusiasm for Old School art makes for a change from technically wonderful, colour realism. Other styles and approaches to figure drawing are imo preferable to more of the same.