Sexism in D&D and on ENWorld (now with SOLUTIONS!)
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Right. The mechanics stopped being sexist in 2e.
Proserpine
First Post
Most societies in recorded history were... well, 100% human, non-magical, and had strong, centralized religions. Gender roles are also developed by tradition and/or necessity, things which would be heavily mediated or completely eradicated by the presence of magic, a variety of intelligent species, and a loose (or even strict) religious system that is gender-blind.
Shilsen, I think, isn't calling for D&D to "cater to women" so much as he is calling for it to cater to egalitarianism. Not alienating women - by minimizing the boy's club feel and treating women like they're a legit demographic via less sexist artwork, better gender representation, and other crap - is key to that.
Remathilis
Legend
Even then, the sexist elements in game-rule were fairly weak (a strength cap for females). There was no inherent rules forcing females into "weaker" sex roles (such as enchantress/witch) or barring them for traditionally "male" roles (priests, knights, paladins). In fact, unless you got into some of the bizarre pseudo-historical religions (like certain Greek or Norse deities) or some odd fantasy societies (drow elves), there was no inherent sexism IN THE RULES.
The artwork, otoh, is a different kettle of fish.
Remathilis
Legend
I feel I must call attention to WotC's OWN thoughts on the issue, found in 3.5's Dungeon Master's Guide II.
EQUALITY AND HISTORY
[sblock] In the Middle Ages, as in most periods of human history, strict conventions governed the roles of men and women. Men fought, governed, ran businesses, created art, and determined religious doctrine. Women enjoyed responsibility and influence only in their own households. A few notable women flouted convention to wield as much influence as men. Examples include the teenaged military leader Joan of Arc; the queen and politician Eleanor of Aquitaine; and the mystic and composer Hildegard of Bingen. They broke the rules, but most women led constrained lives.
The DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game treats male and female characters equally. Women are just as capable as men and face no barriers to careers as dungeon raiders. This choice keeps step with modern sensibilities. No gamer should have to play a male PC to have a good time.
A world with full legal and social equality between the sexes would differ significantly from the Middle Ages. The eldest royal heir would ascend to the throne, regardless of gender. Powerful lords would be duchesses as often as dukes. Religious hierarchies could well be integrated.
Some favorite fairy-tale plots go out the window in an egalitarian Middle Ages. Princesses would become accomplished warriors, perfectly capable of rescuing themselves from dragons. Heroes performing great feats would not be rewarded with marriages to fair maidens.
Most players want you to strike a balance between freedom from sexism and historical flavor. Play it by ear, fudge as necessary, and don’t look too hard at the contradictions. When a realistic portrayal of historical sexism would annoy or depress your players, tone down the history. When the details of an
equal-opportunity world seem too modern or out of step with the medieval atmosphere, revert to history. In general, players dislike having sexist rules applied to themselves but don’t mind so much when those rules involve NPCs—provided that any discrimination is presented as a normal element of a stable society, not as brutal or demeaning.[/sblock]
EQUALITY AND HISTORY
[sblock] In the Middle Ages, as in most periods of human history, strict conventions governed the roles of men and women. Men fought, governed, ran businesses, created art, and determined religious doctrine. Women enjoyed responsibility and influence only in their own households. A few notable women flouted convention to wield as much influence as men. Examples include the teenaged military leader Joan of Arc; the queen and politician Eleanor of Aquitaine; and the mystic and composer Hildegard of Bingen. They broke the rules, but most women led constrained lives.
The DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game treats male and female characters equally. Women are just as capable as men and face no barriers to careers as dungeon raiders. This choice keeps step with modern sensibilities. No gamer should have to play a male PC to have a good time.
A world with full legal and social equality between the sexes would differ significantly from the Middle Ages. The eldest royal heir would ascend to the throne, regardless of gender. Powerful lords would be duchesses as often as dukes. Religious hierarchies could well be integrated.
Some favorite fairy-tale plots go out the window in an egalitarian Middle Ages. Princesses would become accomplished warriors, perfectly capable of rescuing themselves from dragons. Heroes performing great feats would not be rewarded with marriages to fair maidens.
Most players want you to strike a balance between freedom from sexism and historical flavor. Play it by ear, fudge as necessary, and don’t look too hard at the contradictions. When a realistic portrayal of historical sexism would annoy or depress your players, tone down the history. When the details of an
equal-opportunity world seem too modern or out of step with the medieval atmosphere, revert to history. In general, players dislike having sexist rules applied to themselves but don’t mind so much when those rules involve NPCs—provided that any discrimination is presented as a normal element of a stable society, not as brutal or demeaning.[/sblock]
RefinedBean
First Post
Good god, I wish this thread had a humor tag.
And yeah, D&D is inherently sexist, at least a little bit. You ever see fantasy pictures of "normal" women? They're either horridly ugly (and therefore probably a monster in disguise, or Ugly For A Reason) or, at the very least, thin and big-breasted. Meanwhile, males have a much bigger range.
It's the same kind of sexism found in most video games and other popular media. Sex sells, and since you're selling mainly to men, you're going to objectify women at least a wee bit.
This, of course, does NOT mean that the people who play and enjoy D&D are sexist themselves. We're wayyyy too diverse a group to pigeonhole like that.
And yeah, D&D is inherently sexist, at least a little bit. You ever see fantasy pictures of "normal" women? They're either horridly ugly (and therefore probably a monster in disguise, or Ugly For A Reason) or, at the very least, thin and big-breasted. Meanwhile, males have a much bigger range.
It's the same kind of sexism found in most video games and other popular media. Sex sells, and since you're selling mainly to men, you're going to objectify women at least a wee bit.
This, of course, does NOT mean that the people who play and enjoy D&D are sexist themselves. We're wayyyy too diverse a group to pigeonhole like that.
Jack7
First Post
I can offer a sort of personal observation about all this, in an analogical fashion.
When I first starting dating my wife, who is black (I am not), she would notice people "looking at us funny a lot." It made her self-conscious (she'd never dated the white man before). It didn't me (make me self-conscious), I just don't tend to care anyways about that kinda thing. But I told her that it was fine, I never noticed it and people all treated us nicely anyways. People have always treated us nicely, with one exception, and that was a couple of young black boys, and I just happen to think that in their case they were kinda either jealous or disturbed that my girlfriend was with me instead of one a' them. Just a hunch based on their expressions and behavior.
Anywho at that time it wasn't even legal to do that in my state (cross the country race line), miscegenation laws were still in effect, and although nobody ever enforced them or even cared, our dating, much less our marriage, was Constitutionally illegal. As a technical matter. (Its entirely legal now. Even our youngins are legal now that the Constitution was amended. Will wonders never cease?) But I told my one day to be wife just to forget about anything she was assuming that people might be thinking and instead to just smile at them and be pleasant and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts they would return the favor. And they did, and often more than so. Even our one day to be pastor told me the first time I met him he didn't think much of the idea of a racially mixed marriage. (I respected his honesty and told him it didn't scare me none, if mine wouldn't him. And it didn't.) But he warmed up to my wife real swell once he actually met her. We even started going to my grandmother's old church and they took to us like white on rice, and black-eyed peas, and ten years earlier I'd sorta bet we'd have cleared the benches just by showing up. So that closed that case.
To make a long story short she eased up and began to relax some and within a few months she said she never noticed any funny looks any more. Either she really didn't notice anymore, there really weren't any funny looks in the first place (she had just been assuming about the motives of others instead of really knowing those motives), or like me, she just didn't care in any case.
My point is that sometimes in life you get what you go looking for.
And sometimes you get what you don't look for, which in many ways, may be just as important, if not more so, as the opposite thing.
Anywho, this is not to say there is no such thing as racism or sexism or whatever the "ism du jour" might be, it's just that it usually isn't the bugbear it appears to be on first blush, and truth be told, you get to know most people, and they're pretty fair. That is they may have motives for their beliefs, even ones I sometimes think wrong, but they may have motives that to them are based on solid principles or based on valid personal experience.
So you can't always mind-read and be accurate. I'm just not sure there are that many real Jedi masters running around.
Hell, the only ones I know who can mind read are women, that's what the ones I know tell me anyways, and I'm not always sure they're right either.
I can't prove that, for an absolute fact, but it's just a hunch based on personal observation.
As for the game, I suspect it's much like it is in real life.
You get the world you set out to make.
Or the one you'll tolerate anyway.
When I first starting dating my wife, who is black (I am not), she would notice people "looking at us funny a lot." It made her self-conscious (she'd never dated the white man before). It didn't me (make me self-conscious), I just don't tend to care anyways about that kinda thing. But I told her that it was fine, I never noticed it and people all treated us nicely anyways. People have always treated us nicely, with one exception, and that was a couple of young black boys, and I just happen to think that in their case they were kinda either jealous or disturbed that my girlfriend was with me instead of one a' them. Just a hunch based on their expressions and behavior.
Anywho at that time it wasn't even legal to do that in my state (cross the country race line), miscegenation laws were still in effect, and although nobody ever enforced them or even cared, our dating, much less our marriage, was Constitutionally illegal. As a technical matter. (Its entirely legal now. Even our youngins are legal now that the Constitution was amended. Will wonders never cease?) But I told my one day to be wife just to forget about anything she was assuming that people might be thinking and instead to just smile at them and be pleasant and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts they would return the favor. And they did, and often more than so. Even our one day to be pastor told me the first time I met him he didn't think much of the idea of a racially mixed marriage. (I respected his honesty and told him it didn't scare me none, if mine wouldn't him. And it didn't.) But he warmed up to my wife real swell once he actually met her. We even started going to my grandmother's old church and they took to us like white on rice, and black-eyed peas, and ten years earlier I'd sorta bet we'd have cleared the benches just by showing up. So that closed that case.
To make a long story short she eased up and began to relax some and within a few months she said she never noticed any funny looks any more. Either she really didn't notice anymore, there really weren't any funny looks in the first place (she had just been assuming about the motives of others instead of really knowing those motives), or like me, she just didn't care in any case.
My point is that sometimes in life you get what you go looking for.
And sometimes you get what you don't look for, which in many ways, may be just as important, if not more so, as the opposite thing.
Anywho, this is not to say there is no such thing as racism or sexism or whatever the "ism du jour" might be, it's just that it usually isn't the bugbear it appears to be on first blush, and truth be told, you get to know most people, and they're pretty fair. That is they may have motives for their beliefs, even ones I sometimes think wrong, but they may have motives that to them are based on solid principles or based on valid personal experience.
So you can't always mind-read and be accurate. I'm just not sure there are that many real Jedi masters running around.
Hell, the only ones I know who can mind read are women, that's what the ones I know tell me anyways, and I'm not always sure they're right either.
I can't prove that, for an absolute fact, but it's just a hunch based on personal observation.
As for the game, I suspect it's much like it is in real life.
You get the world you set out to make.
Or the one you'll tolerate anyway.
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