Sexism in D&D and on ENWorld (now with SOLUTIONS!)

[Proserpine]

Re: posts that point out that D&D itself treats female and male characters equally. The mechanics in 4e are, indeed, gender blind. But the representation of women in adventure materials and whatnot isn't. Here and here offer some statistical proof of that. There's a big difference between explicit and implicit sexism, and neither a very good. Just because something isn't totally overt doesn't make it any less questionable or right.

People, particularly guys, and particularly guys in a traditionally male dominated context, start to assume that the things specifically included to appeal to males are somehow "normal" and therefore not actually specifically designed to appeal to males. This bugs me a bit. You'll get people who look at Barbie and recognize that it's designed to appeal to girls, and then look at a cartoon entitled something like Mega Robot Viking Ninja Explosion Turbo or whatever and cannot, no matter how hard they try, see that this might just be a wee bit aimed at boys as a market.

They think that their jokes or comments or soft porn artwork are "normal" and not actually gender specific, and blame others, particularly women, for not liking the things and the behavior they do. If someone ever uses the word "feminazi," chances are you're talking to someone in this category. Ditto "oversensitive" with reference to women who dislike their behavior.

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, but especially with these parts. The marketing/designing issues are really troublesome, since women gamers will engage in "male-centric" activities in spite of not being considered a valid or equal part of those activities' audiences. And things don't really change, because we participate as long as we aren't explicitly excluded.

Your point is reinforced by a recent thread: the one shilsen linked about Witch Girl Adventures. The OP asked (I'm paraphrasing), "Have they missed their mark by targeting females?" That question was asked because the default audience, especially when it comes to gaming, is male.

It also bugs me, as a feminist geek especially, to see dissenting voices silenced in the way you mentioned. "Oh, you silly feminazi!" is not very productive, nor is blaming someone for their discomfort over sexist behavior, sexist artwork, or whatever else.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1114872

 

[Jack7]

and big-breasted.

I try not to hold that against any female.
I'm just enlightened that way.

 

[S'mon]

3.5 DMG2: "When a realistic portrayal of historical sexism would annoy or depress your players, tone down the history. When the details of an
equal-opportunity world seem too modern or out of step with the medieval atmosphere, revert to history"

- I thought this was particularly good advice for most GMs running a 'pseudo-medieval' setting. Of course it's possible to have a D&D world that does not resemble medieval Earth at all - perhaps it's a far future world where men are extinct and women procreate asexually; or maybe humans sexes are very different from IRL. Maybe it's a setting emulating feminist or anti-feminist fantasy. But for the default D&D setting I think it's excellent advice.

 

[ExploderWizard]

There are Sly Pimps and Rich Panderers on that harlot table too, and they can be male or female. Heck, anything on that table could be a man whore if you wanted it to be.

 

[Proserpine]

Marketing

and

product

design

cater

to

a

target

audience.

Haven't heard that one before. Oh, wait...

Part of the point is that there's no inherent reason for D&D to cater mostly to its male audience. Well, minus the fact that it came out of war gaming, but that's not a valid excuse - D&D has evolved a lot since then, and is a much different game now. What it comes down to is that D&D's target audience should be geeks, and there are PLENTY of female geeks out there (like myself) that feel second-rate when it comes to all sorts of gaming. I am marginalized in a group which is already socially marginalized. And marketing towards a target audience isn't really a good justification for the irony of that.

It's the same kind of sexism found in most video games and other popular media. Sex sells, and since you're selling mainly to men, you're going to objectify women at least a wee bit.

This, of course, does NOT mean that the people who play and enjoy D&D are sexist themselves. We're wayyyy too diverse a group to pigeonhole like that.

Then the largely non-sexist geeks can make do without the sexist crap that objectifies women or casts them into gendered roles. A win for all!

 

[mach1.9pants]

Thank god someone so enlightened came by to show us the error of our ways. Really I had no idea this hobby I'd enjoyed for so long was so misogynistic. I guess the female players that I've gamed with since the early 80s were just confused or self-loathing.

Look, there are a number of things wrong with your arguments. In fact, you're really just starting with a conclusion and then expecting everyone to chime in and agree with you, rather than have a serious discussion.

Yep there is no more sexism in DnD that anywhere in the 'real world' (TM) but I think a lot less in ENW. I think you are being hyper-sensitive to things which have changed. Original DnD held more sexism 'cos it was launched in a sexist time. The fact that you have played as the only male in an otherwise all female group helps prove DnD is not intrinsicly sexist. Yes fantasy art includes a lot of flesh (including male) but thankfully not so much anymore or in DnD. Yes some settings are sexist to an extent.. well surprise surprise that is because they are based on medieval cultures where sexism was mostly the norm.
And bringing up Pcats harlot table is pathetic, it is brought up because is is so anachronistic

 

[ajanders]

How do we intend to measure sexism?
Has someone defined a "sexism scale"?

What would be acceptable as evidence of "not sexism"?

 

[shilsen]

Sigh! This is why I shouldn't nap after I start a thread...

I think some people are sexist and some people aren't. Many people i think don't realize they are being sexist when they are. But i also feel that some people are over sensitive to remarks they find sexist and find it where it doesn't exist.

True. I generally tend to be wary of seeing sexism where it doesn't exist, but I'm also aware of the fact that what I define as sexism isn't necessarily what someone else would define as such. I should also note that what I'm referring to in the original post isn't so much out-and-out "women are inferior" sexism so much as a much subtler vibe that the game is geared towards men, which is more what I see.

I once was running a game that including a woman PC. After she read over the setting she was upset with me that in my setting I had women and men equal. She wanted to create a female character that had to prove herself to the men and over come that in a fantasy setting. Some people actually do want sexism in their game.

Absolutely. I could thoroughly enjoy sexism in a game as long as it didn't make any of the players uncomfortable. I just don't think it has a place in the default game or the gaming community.

Thank god someone so enlightened came by to show us the error of our ways. Really I had no idea this hobby I'd enjoyed for so long was so misogynistic. I guess the female players that I've gamed with since the early 80s were just confused or self-loathing.

Why would that have to be the case? I've met multiple female gamers who've told me they game despite the sexism in gaming because the game itself is something they enjoy.

Look, there are a number of things wrong with your arguments. In fact, you're really just starting with a conclusion and then expecting everyone to chime in and agree with you, rather than have a serious discussion.

Not at all. I was fully expecting to see very little actual agreement with me here, but I figured we could discuss it maturely.

Like everything else, it's evolved.

No arguments there. I'm very aware of the fact that the game and the gaming community has evolved and certainly improved in this area. But improvement surely doesn't mean that one can't want further improvement, does it?

Yep. I don't really buy Shilsen's premise, though it never hurts to be reminded that other people may see things differently.

Thanks. That was the basic idea behind me starting this thread. I'm really curious to see what people think on the subject, esp. people who have a different take on it than me.

Being female, I've never had any issues with sexism in either situation. In any game world i play I or run, except in SciFi settings, sexism happens, just not always towards women.

Interesting. Do you eliminate sexism in SciFi settings?

As in being a female gamer, I've never run into any RL sexism issues either. Maybe that's partly because I'm only one of two GMs they can come to, or because I'm not good looking, but except once where one of the (female) gamers fell in love with another player, we never had issues.

Probably due to being male I've never run into issues with sexism in my games, but I've heard some serious horror stories from female gamers, both in real life and on forums such as ENWorld and the WotC boards (Astrid's Parlor there has some really bad tales to relate).

Also, usually guys notice pretty fast that I'm not the standard female. I make the same type of jokes, drink the same type of beer and can fart as loud as any of them.

Actually, that sounds like at least 50% of the female gamers I've met

Well, frankly, they are. That table is one of the bizarre artifacts of the 1e DMG, and generally mentioned because people nowadays can't believe that it existed. Bringing up the past is not tantamount to promoting sexism in gaming, and I'm a little surprised you used it as an example.

Then again, folks should draw their own conclusion; I had posted the table, so my opinion is probably biased.

No offense meant, PCat. I just happened to remember seeing that post of yours and it was the one I found when I did a quick search, so I linked it. I may have missed the context in which it was posted. That said, I think the nature of D&D's past does tinge the current in certain not-so-good ways, but then that's obvious in my original post.

I'm dead-set against sexism in real life, in gaming and here on the boards. I think it's up to each DM and player to make sure that they aren't maintaining a game that makes people uncomfortable. I have the most fun with both sexes in my game (out of 12 players in two campaigns, six are female), and both my NPC authority figures and my villains are often female. But that being said, I don't consider my game to be a soapbox against sexism. I'm not trying to make a societal point when I play D&D, I'm trying to have fun and make sure that all my players do as well. Being conscious of sexism (and racism), without dwelling on it, serves me well here.

That's one of the tough balancing acts for me. When I'm running a game, my primary aim is obviously the enjoyment of all concerned, not to make broader societal points. And so sexism and racism tend not to be engaged with unless they are specific plot points. But, at the same time, I tend to notice how societal points influence the nature and presentation of gaming and the gaming community, and I think some of that is worth discussion (hence the thread).

Like Rodrigo said, I've gamed with well over a hundred different women. They've run the same gamut as male players have, and have the same strengths and foibles. Expecting otherwise seems a bit odd to me.

I've gamed with a lot fewer people (men or women) than you, but I'm quite clear on the fact that there's no less or more variety in the women who game as the men. If I indicated otherwise in the original post, then I was presenting my point poorly.

I found this part of the OP's post the most helpful when evaluating it.

I understand that one of the primary reasons, if not the major one, for such sexism is because we live in a world (speaking mostly of the USA here, which has the biggest part of the D&D pie) where sexism runs rampant.

Good point. If someone seriously doesn't believe that sexism is an issue in the USA right now, I think it's safe to say that the person wouldn't see the sort of things I see (or view them as an issue).

Of course, it's also possible that someone could think there's too much sexism in the US and still think I'm full of it

 

[Mark]

What do you think?

I think if people's wives, girlfriends and female players would post to gaming message boards as much as the guys and increase their presence at gamestores and conventions, the issue would more rapidly become a thing of the past.

 

[Hereticus]

I think if people's wives, girlfriends and female players would post to gaming message boards as much as the guys and increase their presence at gamestores and conventions, the issue would more rapidly become a thing of the past.

I agree, diversity is great.

It has been my experience (it may not be representative of the majority) that I higher percentage of female players get into a game as a result of a partner than males.

Last night I went to hear an ex-Buddhist monk speak about a book he had written. He shared a story about Buddhism growing to the United States as a result of male US soldiers bringing home Asian wives. As of today in the US, that religion is no longer female dominant.

With more female gamers starting to play for whatever reason, at some point in the future the mix will hit near equilibrium. But as of today, we are not there yet.