Shards of the Silve Flame -- OOC thread

[Anax]

Ahh! I knew I was forgetting something... good thing I made that save.

If you want to stick with the pure first-AoO thing, I'm fine with that. I wouldn't expect it to be an issue all that often, in any case. PbP combat seems tricky. (Actually, I'm a bit surprised you jumped into a fight so immediately! Although it does set the mood quite nicely, and let us work out mechanics questions early.)

 

[drothgery]

I wasn't planning on jumping into a fight right away, but then I had an idea that pretty much required the scene that's playing out now.

As for AoOs, I think anything else would really slow down combat (and PBP combat is slow enough already), as anytime someone did something that provoked an AoO, I'd have to stop and ask if they wanted to take it (because it's rarely obvious that someone's going to come in behind another creature that drew out the AoOs). FWIW, monsters and hostile NPCs will follow the same rule, and always take the first AoO presented.

 

[drothgery]

OOC: Hrm. If they're grappling, they should be in the same square--specifically, Dain should have entered the Rakshasa's square. In any case, five foot step for two strikes. -4 non-proficiency penalty for doing subdual damage, can't sneak attack.

I think technically Dain doesn't enter the rakshasa's squre until his next turn.

And I guess by game mechanics it is quite possible to do subdual damage with a thinblade (i.e. basically a bigger rapier) against a creature that has DR 15/piercing and good by taking a -4 to hit, even if it seems a bit wierd...

 

[stonegod]

I think technically Dain doesn't enter the rakshasa's squre until his next turn.

According the the SRD, he's already there:

Step 4

Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

I played a monk for a few years, so grappling rules are second nature to me by now.

 

[Anax]

And I guess by game mechanics it is quite possible to do subdual damage with a thinblade (i.e. basically a bigger rapier) against a creature that has DR 15/piercing and good by taking a -4 to hit, even if it seems a bit wierd...

Yeah. This is one of the weirder intersections of the rules for subdual damage, DR, and weapon damage types. Without using a good and piercing weapon, these guys don't get hurt by small amounts of damage (and that includes subdual damage.) So, in order to effectively do subdual damage, you need a good piercing weapon.

Normally, I'd describe what Hariel's doing as attempting to slug the enemy with the hilt of the weapon, but that doesn't make sense with the DR in this case. (Actually, that's what I originally wrote as flavor text, but then I noticed this problem.)

There's no super good way to imagine what's going on here, according to the rules. But, the easiest way I can think of it is that Hariel is still doing "real" damage to the opponent, but she's being very careful to avoid hitting anything vital. Kind of the opposite of making a sneak attack. Things like piercing a shoulder or the flesh of an arm or leg... Those still hurt a lot, result in blood less and gradual weakening, (and in reality, could still get seriously infected by deep puncture wounds, but this isn't reality...) But they aren't as severe a danger as punctures to the chest cavity. This way, the attack penalty is then because she's trying really really hard to avoid vital areas, not because she's using the "flat" of the blade or something. And, the inability to sneak attack is because sneak attacking depends on striking for a vital area.

 

[drothgery]

I wasn't sure how to come up with flavor text for doing non-lethal damage with a piercing weapon; thanks.

I'll write the next round this evening; if Oswin doesn't post, I'll assume he joins in the attempt-to-subdue crowd.

 

[ShaggySpellsword]

I have a dilemma...I never posted my memorized Paladin spell. There is, now, an obvious choice (Bless Weapon!). Should I just assume I memorized something else though? Bless or Lesser Restoration?

I am back now. Posting!

 

[drothgery]

I have a dilemma...I never posted my memorized Paladin spell. There is, now, an obvious choice (Bless Weapon!). Should I just assume I memorized something else though? Bless or Lesser Restoration?

I am back now. Posting!

It's up to you what you have prepared; having Bless Weapon in the first round would have been nice, but at this point you're already holding a good & piercing weapon (flametouched iron weapons are always [Good], and it's a rapier).

 

[ShaggySpellsword]

Right...forgot about that. Well then, I will just assume I have already cast whatever it was today and remember to memorize something for the next time.

 

[Anax]

I'm sure drothgery has gotten to check out his ECS for Investigate by now, but here's a quick summary for future reference (and my take on it, so drothgery can correct me if he thinks it should work differently):


The Investigate feat (ECS, pp. 55-56) enables new uses for the Search skill--finding and analyzing clues. Clues are described specifically as being "physical, and can be seen, heard, touched, smelled, or tasted. A clue stands out because it is not a normal feature of the area being searched." Examples given are: a trampled flowerbed, a broken urn, a pin snapped off in a lock, a torn strip of cloak, a burnt scrap of scroll, or a brooch clutched in a dead man's fist.

If there are no clues that can be found, a successful use of Investigate doesn't turn anything up.


The base Search DC to find a clue (if there is a clue, now--this doesn't cons things up out of the ether) is 10, modified based on how disturbed the area being searched has been. +0 for an undisturbed location, +5 for a disturbed location (slightly and perhaps unintentionally. A good classical example would be bystanders walking around on a crime scene), and +10 for greatly disturbed (massively and intentionally--scrubbing down the area, etc.)


Once a clue has been found, analyzing it requires a second DC 15 Search check. "By examining a body, you might determine whether the victim fought back or provided no struggle at all, or if claws, a weapon, or a spell killed the victim. By looking at a scorch mark on a wall, you might approximate the position of the spellcaster when the spell was cast."

The Search check to analyze a clue is modified by the circumstance, and how significant the insight provided by the clue is. The Search DC is increased by +2 for each day that's passed since the event in question (max +10), +0 if it's a minor clue (provides only a small piece of the solution), +2 for a moderate clue (provides significant data toward the solution of the puzzle and could lead to a conclusion without additional data), and +5 for a major clue (provides everything the investigator needs to solve a puzzle, although the solution may not be immediately obvious.)


A really good example that springs to mind of how these two things work together is a classic Sherlock Holmes snippet: Holmes notices that Watson's shoes are stained by a certain color of mud (find a clue). He then deduces that Watson has been to a specific part of town where new construction is happening, because it's spreading a lot of dirt about, of that specific hue (analyze it.) Holmes does this all as a free action, which clearly implies that Holmes is an epic character. *cough*



For this specific case, I'm not sure whether Investigate even applies. I'm thinking in terms of the puzzle in question being why the fiends wanted Lord Alistair. An example of clues in the recent posting might be the drawings and journals. Analysis might be able to suggest what he was working on when the fiends came in, or perhaps provide some insight into what Lord Alistair's research was trending towards: Hariel probably wouldn't know about fiends in detail, but she might be able to deduce from the pattern of the research that some item is of greater significance, and draw that item to the attention of the people who do know more about fiends.

Investigate might also reveal as character knowledge some of the "what's going on" bits that were posted about how the fight came to be, with the silence spell to try to keep Kahlia from getting involved, etc.


Investigate is definitely one of those skills where it's totally up to the DM what information may or may not be gained from use, and how to provide that information. Sometimes, there won't be any use for it. Sometimes, it'll be an appropriate time to use it, but there still won't be anything useful to be gained. (Same sort of thing as Gather Information: sometimes there are no locals to talk to. Sometimes there are locals, but they don't know anything of import.)