Shield master on twitter

[smbakeresq]

"From a role playing angle though the whole thing makes no sense at all. Why is there a condition on bashing with your shield?"

There isnt.

With a shield you can make an improvised attack as normal under the rules for attack.
With a shield, you can shove, using your attack action as one of the attacks.

Be clear, shield master does not allow these, they are already there.

Shield master simply **adds** a new set of conditions under which you can use your attack action, get all of its attacks and **also** use your shield for the bonus attack option as described. Your attack action strikes setup the enemy for your bonus bash.

So, not limiting at all - adding more.

It’s limited by the size condition written into the Shove action, no more than one size larger. That alone makes shove a limited action as PC lives are filled with huge and larger creatures that are dangerous.

 

[smbakeresq]

thst isn’t cheese by any definition, it’s just the literal point of Sharpshooter.


if a mild change to a feat makes them “not th same character”, that isn’t a rules problem, it’s a player problem.



yah it’s a strong feat regardless.

You missed the point of my statement entirely. JC claimed it was cheese in his tweet. That he considers it cheese at all compared to SS is absurd. That’s why I put a ? at the end but I guess you missed it.

Yes the point of SS is that it is a ridiculous feat that is way more OP then shield master ever was. That’s the point.

It’s not a mild change either, Shield Master isn’t any good as a feat now and not worth taking. It was 3 situational benefits in a package that added up to be ok with the right build. The choices before where SS for ranged (dominant) GW or GW + PAM (excellent) or for shield builds Shield Mastery (not as good as first 2 but fun and still useful.)

Now since you can’t benefit from your own shield bash if the initiative comes out unfavorable your team can’t either as the creature will just stand up before they can go. That makes it essentially useless. Shield Mastery was a good feat because you could set up yourself (with the right sized creature and good rolls) and sometimes your teammates

Both SS and GWM and PAM are FAR more powerful now and let the PC who took them benefit directly from taking them with zero conditions, you just use them when you wish.

And don’t bother to say -5 to hit is a limitation, it isn’t. There are many ways to mitigate that, and it’s only -3 to hit for SS anyway since the people who take it take archery style also.

Nothing in Shield Master (or any other feat really) compares to the effective -3/+10 DMG with no range or obstacle limitations in SS in a bounded accuracy game.

That’s cheese to me by definition. There is a reason many DM limit it and many threads here call it out as OP and ridiculous. I have never seen the thread that Shield Master needs to be reigned in or the build guide in which Shield Master is rated “must have.”

 

[smbakeresq]

thst isn’t cheese by any definition, it’s just the literal point of Sharpshooter.


if a mild change to a feat makes them “not th same character”, that isn’t a rules problem, it’s a player problem.



yah it’s a strong feat regardless.

You missed the point of my statement entirely. JC claimed it was cheese in his tweet. That he considers it cheese at all compared to SS is absurd. That’s why I put a ? at the end but I guess you missed it.

Yes the point of SS is that it is a ridiculous feat that is way more OP then shield master ever was. That’s the point.

It’s not a mild change either, Shield Master isn’t any good as a feat now and not worth taking. It was 3 situational benefits in a package that added up to be ok with the right build. The choices before where SS for ranged (dominant) GW or GW + PAM (excellent) or for shield builds Shield Mastery (not as good as first 2 but fun and still useful.)

Now since you can’t benefit from your own shield bash if the initiative comes out unfavorable your team can’t either as the creature will just stand up before they can go. That makes it essentially useless. Shield Mastery was a good feat because you could set up yourself (with the right sized creature and good rolls) and sometimes your teammates

Both SS and GWM and PAM are FAR more powerful now and let the PC who took them benefit directly from taking them with zero conditions, you just use them when you wish.

And don’t bother to say -5 to hit is a limitation, it isn’t. There are many ways to mitigate that, and it’s only -3 to hit for SS anyway since the people who take it take archery style also.

Nothing in Shield Master (or any other feat really) compares to the effective -3/+10 DMG with no range or obstacle limitations in SS in a bounded accuracy game.

That’s cheese to me by definition. There is a reason many DM limit it and many threads here call it out as OP and ridiculous. I have never seen the thread that Shield Master needs to be reigned in or the build guide in which Shield Master is rated “must have.”

 

[smbakeresq]

I really don´t know why you are so angry... he already changed a ruling about bark skin.

about shield master: yes, it is a nerf, but they already stated that the feat was badly designed, because you now have a standard routine that forces the enemy to contest every single round. It was never meant to be used that way. Now, you have the option of shoving after your attack. That will allow you to retreat, shove the enemy into you own friends, shoving them prone if another melee combatant takes its turn after you, and so on.
I´d say there is more bad design in that feat: it is strange that the one bonus depends on the fact that only you are targeted by a spell... why not giving that bonus all the time. Why is it important that you are the sole target of the enemy fireball...?

Forcing some enemies to contest every round isn’t a bad feat design. Enemies contest against SS, GWM and PAM every round with less chance at success in some cases and for more direct damage, they just contest with AC.

Look at it this way, GWM and SS users probably outnumber Shield Mastery users 10 to 15 -1 at the tables. I didn’t check the character guides section for the martial classes before I wrote this but I don’t think I ever saw a recommended Shield Master build except as a niche.

I don’t think it was a problem that needed correction even if it wasn’t as intended. I would have changed to wording to allow it. The feat should have been written “after your attack action completes” if they wanted to be clear.

 

[jaelis]

I don’t think the point was to make the feat weaker, it was to make the rules simpler and easier to interpret. I do agree that the new ruling is the more obvious one. It is also consistent with existing rulings in the Sage Advice document.

But if you think the old mechanics worked better, keep using them. Just like you could have done all along even if he’d ruled this way from the start.

Not even AL games are “required” to follow the Twitter rulings.

 

[CapnZapp]

You missed the point of my statement entirely. JC claimed it was cheese in his tweet. That he considers it cheese at all compared to SS is absurd. That’s why I put a ? at the end but I guess you missed it.

Yes the point of SS is that it is a ridiculous feat that is way more OP then shield master ever was. That’s the point.

It’s not a mild change either, Shield Master isn’t any good as a feat now and not worth taking. It was 3 situational benefits in a package that added up to be ok with the right build. The choices before where SS for ranged (dominant) GW or GW + PAM (excellent) or for shield builds Shield Mastery (not as good as first 2 but fun and still useful.)

Now since you can’t benefit from your own shield bash if the initiative comes out unfavorable your team can’t either as the creature will just stand up before they can go. That makes it essentially useless. Shield Mastery was a good feat because you could set up yourself (with the right sized creature and good rolls) and sometimes your teammates

Both SS and GWM and PAM are FAR more powerful now and let the PC who took them benefit directly from taking them with zero conditions, you just use them when you wish.

And don’t bother to say -5 to hit is a limitation, it isn’t. There are many ways to mitigate that, and it’s only -3 to hit for SS anyway since the people who take it take archery style also.

Nothing in Shield Master (or any other feat really) compares to the effective -3/+10 DMG with no range or obstacle limitations in SS in a bounded accuracy game.

That’s cheese to me by definition. There is a reason many DM limit it and many threads here call it out as OP and ridiculous. I have never seen the thread that Shield Master needs to be reigned in or the build guide in which Shield Master is rated “must have.”

Banning/redesigning GWM and SS is an obvious move by any DM playing with minmaxers.

 

[5ekyu]

It’s limited by the size condition written into the Shove action, no more than one size larger. That alone makes shove a limited action as PC lives are filled with huge and larger creatures that are dangerous.

Huh? Yes, shove action still retains the limitations it always had. For example, you cannot shove someone who is on another planet.

Shield Master and bonus actions et al have not changed those.

 

[smbakeresq]

I don’t think the point was to make the feat weaker, it was to make the rules simpler and easier to interpret. I do agree that the new ruling is the more obvious one. It is also consistent with existing rulings in the Sage Advice document.

But if you think the old mechanics worked better, keep using them. Just like you could have done all along even if he’d ruled this way from the start.

Not even AL games are “required” to follow the Twitter rulings.

I am not sure because I don’t see how it makes any other rule simpler and easier to interpret. If JC wanted to he could have worded Shield Master like Monks Flurry of Blows, they didn’t.

I will of course use the old way, it’s makes the feat worth taking as opposed to almost garbage now and players enjoy it. But then I am the DM that rolls for ability scores, lets rogues use hand axes to sneak attack (the dwarf rogue mini has hand axes) lets fighters use their shield to bash without penalty for a d4 (a trained fighter would learn that as part of using a shield) etc. None of which has ruined my game.

 

[Oofta]

There is now virtually no reason to take the feat. Resiliency is far better for improving dexterity saves. If you want to avoid damage, you should have increased your constitution or taken Durable. Want to run around avoiding combat? Should have taken a different class because that's not what my character is there for. I want to be the focus of attacks. If I can still attack-shove-attack at 5th level I'm still going to have an opposed roll every round so that buys nothing.

Shield master was one of the few iconic feats designed for tank/sword-and-board characters. Two weapon fighting? Dual Weapon is pretty good. Two-Handed? Great Weapon and/or Polearm Master especially in combination with Sentinel. Archer? The obvious.

I guess I can still run it the way I want for home games (I've never considered tweets official), but for AL play? My fighter is now stuck with a feat that buys them basically nothing useful.

 

[TwoSix]

But, if it's just a bonus action, can't you then attack with the off-hand weapon or shove with a shield and choose an action other than Attack? Such as Dodge. Or Ready?

Sure. Sounds fun to me.