D&D 5E Should D&D 5E be GURPS D&D?

[Mercule]

I just hate GURPS.
But, I think you're right. My GURPS hate is system-related rather than a production model issue. I think SJG did a great job of pumping out new material for various settings, including licensed stuff. It's even tempted me to come play the game based on the various weird products they took a chance on.

Thank you for posting my comments.

For some reason, I loathe and despise the GURPS system. They do expansions right, though. I've even bought a couple to mercilessly yoink flavor.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

For some reason, I loathe and despise the GURPS system. They do expansions right, though. I've even bought a couple to mercilessly yoink flavor.

Indeed I've bought quite a few GURPS books just for the fluff text and background material. 3e was better for this than 4e, some of those GURPS 3e books were so well researched they could actually be used as texts if you ignored the game mechanics.

 

[jadrax]

Indeed I've bought quite a few GURPS books just for the fluff text and background material. 3e was better for this than 4e, some of those GURPS 3e books were so well researched they could actually be used as texts if you ignored the game mechanics.

GURPS supplements are almost universally fantastic. Sadly, they also seem to be universally bad at making a decent profit.

 

[Argyle King]

I started thinking about this after the 'One Core Book' thread popped up, and found myself REALLY liking it. The concept of having a solid, well designed, supported core set of rules that is the backbone of your brand. Be it set in Poland, Greyhawk, FR, whatevs. It's the default setting that embraces all the tropes the designers want to throw into D&D proper.

Then, using the core rules as your game engine, leverage the modularity concept and offer up alternate settings, all-edition rules expansions/supplements, guidelines, monster manuals, equipment manuals, what-have-you, etc, etc . . . Don't go too far afield from the tried and true variation on the medieval fantasy genre though.

All supported in-house, and, ALL optional. You just want to play core and ignore the rest? Done. The options NEVER overwrite the core if you don't want them to. Modularity also allows one group to play core as D&D Supers and other group to play D&D Gritty.

Hmmmm, sounds a little like the 2nd Ed of D&D to me now that I think of it but built on a re-vamped, simpler (as compared to AD&D) B/X, BECMI chassis.

What say you?

Dave

I say you should look into GURPS Dungeon Fantasy.

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy

 

[Argyle King]

It's worth mentioning that Dungeon Fantasy does have a monster book.

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1

The second book in the series (Dungeons) is akin to a DMG; it also has some creatures in it. The third book (The Next Level) has racial templates, so that also has creatures in it. Likewise, Mirror of The Fire Demon (which is an adventure) has creatures in it. I mention those specifically because a lot of complaints I hear about GURPS tend to revolve around the supposed lack of a creature book. (Which is not entirely true, btw.) If that still isn't enough to get started, a quick Google search will turn up several results for people who have done the work of converting D&D creatures into GURPS stats; I've found some pretty good Dark Sun stuff for GURPS that way. Beyond that, remember that GURPS is a toolkit system, so there's no reason you cannot convert D&D monsters into GURPS on your own.

As an experiment, try running Caves of Chaos (or whatever adventure suits your fancy) with Dungeon Fantasy, and see how it goes. Compare and contrast the experience with what you've seen of D&D next so far. Decide if there's anything you like better when done one way or the other.

Note: In GURPS terms, Dungeon Fantasy and Fantasy are not the same thing. However, you can mix and match DF material with material from other GURPS sources. It's a modular game, and Dungeon Fantasy does not change that. What DF does is do a lot of the prep work for you and primes the GURPS rules for running a particular genre of game.

 

[Mercule]

GURPS supplements are almost universally fantastic. Sadly, they also seem to be universally bad at making a decent profit.

This may be redundant with my above comments, but I blame the system. If Fantasy Hero had supplements like GURPS, I doubt I'd even consider D&D. Actually, if the Hero System, in general, had supplements at the GURPS level of quality, I'm not sure if I'd consider any other system.

 

[jadrax]

This may be redundant with my above comments, but I blame the system.

I would love to provide a counter argument here, but I don't have one tbh. Its a shame, because people would really benefit from reading some of those books.

 

[Argyle King]

This may be redundant with my above comments, but I blame the system. If Fantasy Hero had supplements like GURPS, I doubt I'd even consider D&D. Actually, if the Hero System, in general, had supplements at the GURPS level of quality, I'm not sure if I'd consider any other system.

Actually... I blame gamers who make judgements on a system without actually playing it. I'll be the first one to admit that I too first looked at the GURPS books and thought holy [----]! Then, I actually sat down and played the game and found it to be far less complicated than I had thought it would be. It sounds crazy, but there are times when I'd actually make the argument that GURPS is less complicated than D&D. Note: I'm not saying you fall into the category I mentioned; I simply feel there are stereotypes about the system which are not even remotely true.

For me, the other thing that I liked -and why I started buying the game- is because things made sense to me. I found that I could be running the game and make a ruling on the fly based on how I felt something should work, and that usually turned out to be right.

How I came to learn GURPS was I got to a point with D&D 4E* where I was unhappy. As I thought upon some of my issues, I realized that I wanted to try something different; another d20 game or another edition of D&D wouldn't be different enough. I decided I would take the leap to try something outside of the d20 system. So it was that I visited the local gaming store.

I browsed over the different options. My first thought was Rifts. I had a very brief amount of experience with it; it was a great game, but looking through the books reminded me of some of the problems I had with it. I eventually came to a point where I was comparing HERO system (I'm not sure of the edition) with GURPS 4th Edition. For some reason, when I looked through the GURPS book that was sitting there -and I mean looked through it with an actually attempt to understand the game- everything seemed to click. I cannot say what it was, but something about the presentation of the material and the layout hit a sweet spot in my brain, and everything just came together. Thus, I starting buying GURPS.

I did not completely forgo what I had learned from D&D though. Some of the lessons I learned from D&D helped me. From D&D 4E I took the idea that PCs and non-PCs need not always be built the same way. Did I really need** to know every single detail about Red-shirt Guard #32? No; I probably don't. GURPS doesn't tell you that you need to anyway, but a trap that some newcomers fall into is in thinking you need to know the point values for everything for everyone.

If a NPC becomes more important for some reason, I'll flesh them out later and make notes for myself. If a NPC is a major character such as the BBEG of the campaign, then -yes- I do sit and make him with more detail. However; generally speaking, I can fit several NPCs on an index card. Now that I have more experience with the game, I could honestly run some things from my head.


*This is not meant to bash the game. I'm simply telling the story. In an odd way, GURPS helped me to enjoy 4E. It did so by teaching me that not every game is well suited to every style of play. When I learned that, I felt that I was more able to relax and accept 4E for what it was. When I wanted something else, I'd play something else. Previously, the majority of my knowledge was D&D, so I kept trying to beat my head against the wall to get a game to work in a way different from how it was designed. I learned to think outside the red box.

**Though, I'm the type of DM who enjoys world building. So, if I have time, I'll sit and sketch out that information.

 

[Mercule]

Actually... I blame gamers who make judgements on a system without actually playing it. I'll be the first one to admit that I too first looked at the GURPS books and thought holy [----]! Then, I actually sat down and played the game and found it to be far less complicated than I had thought it would be. It sounds crazy, but there are times when I'd actually make the argument that GURPS is less complicated than D&D. Note: I'm not saying you fall into the category I mentioned; I simply feel there are stereotypes about the system which are not even remotely true.

Glad you made the caveat. My disdain comes from actually playing it. Apparently, my teacher was a fairly well respected GM, but that game was potentially the least fun I've ever had gaming. I've tried to play it a couple of times, but never cared for it. Pity. The system complexity doesn't bother me (I'm a huge Hero fan, after all). It just does play well, IMO.

I eventually came to a point where I was comparing HERO system (I'm not sure of the edition) with GURPS 4th Edition. For some reason, when I looked through the GURPS book that was sitting there -and I mean looked through it with an actually attempt to understand the game- everything seemed to click.

I tried out both Hero and GURPS, along with many others, when I got sick of some of TSR's political failings in the early/mid-nineties (stuff like "don't use the term 'armor class' on your web site or we'll sue"). Hero made pretty good sense to me, from the start.

My experience is, however, that people with knowledge of both systems tend to be firmly in one camp or the other. I may have met one or two people in the last two decades who were happy playing both. YMMV, of course.

 

[Argyle King]

Glad you made the caveat. My disdain comes from actually playing it. Apparently, my teacher was a fairly well respected GM, but that game was potentially the least fun I've ever had gaming. I've tried to play it a couple of times, but never cared for it. Pity. The system complexity doesn't bother me (I'm a huge Hero fan, after all). It just does play well, IMO.


I tried out both Hero and GURPS, along with many others, when I got sick of some of TSR's political failings in the early/mid-nineties (stuff like "don't use the term 'armor class' on your web site or we'll sue"). Hero made pretty good sense to me, from the start.

My experience is, however, that people with knowledge of both systems tend to be firmly in one camp or the other. I may have met one or two people in the last two decades who were happy playing both. YMMV, of course.

For me, there were 3 main things which made me choose GURPS over Hero.

1) Like I said, there was something about the layout of the GURPS books which made it easier for me to understand what was going on with just a few minutes to look through the material while at the store. I honestly can't put my finger on exactly what made the difference; the book was simply put together in a way which meshed well with my mind.

2) From my understanding, GURPS starts with a more grounded base and then builds up into the more crazy stuff. Hero goes the opposite direction; starting with cinematic and then having work to be done to get to something more grounded. At the time, I was coming out of D&D 4E being somewhat tired of the over-the-top style, so I was already somewhat skewed against that on the day I decided to buy something else. Though, even now, I tend to prefer more of a nod toward realism. Since that's my preference, it's easier for me to start with a game which has that a baseline and then adds other things later than it is for me to go the other way.

That doesn't mean I always play games which have hardcore realism though. After all, I did mention Dungeon Fantasy. I like having that more solid baseline though. For me personally, even when dealing with dragons, super heroes, and etc, I have a better grasp in my head about how things will work out or how they should be modeled when I can relate them to something in the world around me.

3) I strongly prefer the way that GURPS handles equipment.


I'd be open to playing a Hero game. I don't have anything against the system. From what I know of it, it just doesn't suit my usual tastes as well as GURPS does right out of the gate.

To bring the thread back on topic; the reason I brought up GURPS at all is because I feel that Dungeon Fantasy is actually pretty close to what the OP is wanting. The whole idea behind the product line is to run fantasy games in a style similar to games like D&D and Pathfinder.

Link provided again for ease of reference: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy

You could just use the core GURPS books as well. My first introduction to anything Pathfinder related was a Pathfinder adventure path powered by GURPS. That was before the DF line expanded in the way that it has since then.

Edit: I think something else which helped me to go with GURPS is that I own so many other SJ Games products that I love. Nanuk, Munchkin, Cthulu Dice, Ninja Burger, and many others are games I highly enjoy. The quality that my mind associates with those products is good, so I had a good impression of the brand name.

It's also nice to know that the guy running the company is so passionate about gaming. http://www.enworld.org/forum/news/324798-steve-jackson-wil-wheatons-tabletop.html