Should Ravenloft be a Low Magic Setting?

[Drew]

D&D assumes a certain amount of magical treasure, which increases with character level. Do you think the assumed wealth level is appropriate for a Ravenloft campaign? In other words, do you think that a proliferation of magic items dulls the "gothic horror" feel of Ravenloft?

If so, why? And how would you recommend limiting treasure?

If not, please explain.

 

[GAAAHHH]

Maybe you could use the Midnight or Grim Tales rules for low magic Ravenloft.

 

[Odhanan]

D&D assumes a certain amount of magical treasure, which increases with character level. Do you think the assumed wealth level is appropriate for a Ravenloft campaign? In other words, do you think that a proliferation of magic items dulls the "gothic horror" feel of Ravenloft?

If so, why? And how would you recommend limiting treasure?

No, the magic items and magic don't "dull" the gothic horror, or at least, they don't have to if done the right way.

Saying Ravenloft ought to be low magic assumes, I think, that there is a certain amount of magic which would destroy the feel of Ravenloft, this "gothic horror" you refer to.

I think that, if it's done the wrong way, with magic that constantly serves as some sort of deus ex machina device in the game, it does affect the horror feel of the a game. But it doesn't have to be done the wrong way.

There is a right way to run a game of Ravenloft, and for me, one of the specificities of Ravenloft is not only to be "gothic horror", but to be "gothic horror D&D". That's the fundamental difference between the boxed set and the S&S version, I think. The former sets D&D in a gothic horror environment, while the other fleshes out a gothic horror environment while not embracing D&D's feel.

Magic items can be perverted. Spells can become unsafe, awry, living creatures of their own. There are multiple ways in which you can make magic terrifying, make magic participate to the feel of gothic horror in Ravenloft. Taking away the magic of D&D altogether, however, would only make Ravenloft a standard, unoriginal, cliche'd gothic horror setting.

 

[BryonD]

There is a right way to run a game of Ravenloft, and for me, one of the specificities of Ravenloft is not only to be "gothic horror", but to be "gothic horror D&D".

That is EXACTLY what I was thinking.

 

[Bregh]

There is a right way to run a game of Ravenloft, and for me, one of the specificities of Ravenloft is not only to be "gothic horror", but to be "gothic horror D&D". That's the fundamental difference between the boxed set and the S&S version, I think. The former sets D&D in a gothic horror environment, while the other fleshes out a gothic horror environment while not embracing D&D's feel.

Brilliantly put!

 

[Drew]

No, the magic items and magic don't "dull" the gothic horror, or at least, they don't have to if done the right way.

Saying Ravenloft ought to be low magic assumes, I think, that there is a certain amount of magic which would destroy the feel of Ravenloft, this "gothic horror" you refer to.

I think that, if it's done the wrong way, with magic that constantly serves as some sort of deus ex machina device in the game, it does affect the horror feel of the a game. But it doesn't have to be done the wrong way.

Well, I'm not saying that magic should be thrown out the window. In the default 3E setting, PCs are assumed to have the means to simply purchase the items they want. As written, it seems to me that a party of means will be loading themselves up with animated shields, boots of striding and springing, and other things that just feel a bit "high magic" to me.

That said, I agree that Ravenloft should be gothic D&D, as you put it, not just gothic roleplaying. How do you balance the feel of the setting with the assumed wealth levels? Do you just trust the PCs to play within the genre, or do you just let them play standard characters and kind of roll with the punches?

And, since you brought it up, what about the S&S Ravenloft book did you think hindered the feel of Ravenloft?

 

[Aus_Snow]

Saying Ravenloft ought to be low magic assumes, I think, that there is a certain amount of magic which would destroy the feel of Ravenloft, this "gothic horror" you refer to.

Not at all. Saying "Ravenloft ought to be low magic" assumes little other than the absolutely obvious, unless you're actively looking for an assumption in there. Perhaps it would simply work better, according to some. So, it might not be *necessary* to have it so, but it might be - even a tiny bit - *preferable* (again, to some).

There is a right way to run a game of Ravenloft, and for me, one of the specificities of Ravenloft is not only to be "gothic horror", but to be "gothic horror D&D". That's the fundamental difference between the boxed set and the S&S version, I think. The former sets D&D in a gothic horror environment, while the other fleshes out a gothic horror environment while not embracing D&D's feel.

Whereas, to me, the S&S version was simply very bad, "feel" notwithstanding. Ye olde D&D Ravenloft was by default rather cheesy too, mind you (IMO).

Magic items can be perverted. Spells can become unsafe, awry, living creatures of their own. There are multiple ways in which you can make magic terrifying, make magic participate to the feel of gothic horror in Ravenloft.

Here, I agree completely. More thoughts along these lines can only be good, I thinik.

Taking away the magic of D&D altogether, however, would only make Ravenloft a standard, unoriginal, cliche'd gothic horror setting.

. . . but again, I completely disagree! It's one heck of an assumption you've made here.

Do you hionestly believe that the only way Ravenloft could possibly go upon removing its D&D magic and magic items, is the way of "a standard, unoriginal, cliched gothic horror setting". . . ?!

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I think it should be low-magic. All the RL campaigns I've run have been that way.

 

[Odhanan]

As written, it seems to me that a party of means will be loading themselves up with animated shields, boots of striding and springing, and other things that just feel a bit "high magic" to me.

I personally don't see what hinders the gothic horror feel when a character owns an animated shield, for instance. I could describe the PCs descent in some cave of Darkon and describe how suddenly the shield stops moving along with the PC to rather follow him, staying in his shadow. Is the shield becoming aware? Corrupted?

It's "a bit high magic to you," and I truly think that's the issue here. Ravenloft itself owes its substance to both gothic horror tradition and D&D's substance. Gothic horror works well with D&D, or there wouldn't have been a Ravenloft in the first place.

Personally, I have nothing against magic items or spells. I just use them in the context of the campaign when they can be relevant and useful, and they absolutely can be. I don't need to "balance the setting with the assumed wealth level" because there's no opposition there for me.

I hope my argument here is clear. It seems to be for other people. I hope it is for you as well.

And, since you brought it up, what about the S&S Ravenloft book did you think hindered the feel of Ravenloft?

It didn't hinder the feel of Ravenloft because it wasn't "Ravenloft" as in I6 or the 2nd edition's boxed set. Why wasn't it Ravenloft? Because it wasn't embracing D&D as in "Dungeons" and "Dragons". It was a gothic horror d20 setting using some of the core rules of the PHB and DMG. It wasn't an actual Dungeons and Dragons setting.

Please don't get me wrong: I own most of the WW Ravenloft line and I like it a lot. I'd just want to play D&D using that backdrop. Not World of Darkness.

 

[Nichols]

Could y'all explain what you felt the problems with the 3.0/3.5 version of Ravenloft published by Sword & Sorcery were?

Speaking as one of the free-lancers for that series, I can definitely state that, for myself and the others I worked most closely with at least, there was no desire or effort to divorce Ravenloft from the core rules and feel of Dungeons & Dragons - very much the opposite instead. We did, however, try to make Ravenloft it's own setting, something to build a long-term campaign with native characters in (in a manner similar to Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and other successful campaign settings), and focusing less on "weekend-in-hell" one-shots.

Of course, I can only speak for myself and the writers I worked directly with. It is entirely possible that other free-lancers and the editors/management had different intentions. Given the problems we encountered during our work with Ravenloft, this would not be surprising.

Chris Nichols