Should Ravenloft be a Low Magic Setting?

[Drew]

So it seems that, while not everyone agrees on lower magic, certainly the DM of a Ravenloft campaign needs to take a more direct hand in how and what the PCs are aquiring in terms of magic items.

What about other treasure? Should the PCs by hauling out piles of gold from the cultist's lairs, in keeping with the D&D archtype of "kill monsters and take their stuff?" I can see a couple of answers to this.

First of all, there is the question of where all this money came from. The werewolf had to steal that gold from someone, right? In Ravenloft, I believe that stressing this can really add to the feel of the setting. How are the xenophobic townfolk going to react when you come back to town to sell the art treasures that were stolen from them by some hideous monster? And if you go to the town over the hill, well, they'll be suspicious of a group of heavily armed outsiders with bags full of gold.

Secondly, I'm not sure how much good a lot of gold is going to do you in Ravenloft in the first place. There's something about a character sitting on a pile of gold, with no way to spend it to meaningfully help himself or his friends that seems appropraite to Ravenloft.

 

[Odhanan]

Well, with the exception of the original module, which was something of a dungeon crawl through Strahd's castle, the Ravenloft setting never existed the way you describe it. Even the boxed set advised the DM to avoid random encounters and other trappings of a typical fantasy setting.

I daresay it does, because of I6 and because of the way the boxet set was designed. For D&D. Besides, I never said the boxed set couldn't be better designed. It could, if it was sticking more to D&D's core story.

When was the dungeon archetype ever a key component of the Ravenloft setting in any D&D edition?

It's not my point. My point is that Ravenloft is supposed to be a D&D setting, not a d20 setting using D&D rules. Therefore, it has to use D&D's core components. In "Dungeons and Dragons", you've got "Dungeons" and "Dragons".

Abandoning the weekend-in-hell approach was not, in my opinion, to change the focus of Ravenloft as a setting. It was done to make Ravenloft a more viable setting for long term campaigns.

Again, I'm not criticizing the aims of WW's Ravenloft's design. Hell, I'm not even criticizing its quality as a setting! That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that maybe taking off the "week end in hell" approach, whatever the motivations behind it, created a focus on the setting itself and a huge development of its metaplot while letting D&D's feel within the setting down, which resulted for me in a setting that had more to do with a fantasy version of the World of Darkness than a D&D setting.

That's what I'm saying.

That's a nice way of adding a certain amount of creepiness, sure. In my high-level D&D game, before the 3.5 revision, at least half of my party was wearing boots of striding and springing. It just struck me as somewhat difficult to keep the horror alive as I imagine the heroes bounding around Barovia like moonwalking astronauts.

My problem doesn't lie with magic items per se. It just felt to me after running a party from 1st to roughly 19th level that, as wealth increased, the characters came to feel more and more like medieval superheroes. By decreasing the wealth a bit, the DM can delay this phenomenon until the truly high levels. There is also the side effect of making certain kinds of monsters a bit more of a threat for their CR, which is a good thing in this setting.

It seems to me like that may be a flaw from the campaign and not D&D.

The subject has been discussed time and time again.

The DM has a responsability in what items he allows, gives, sells to the PCs, like in any other D&D game using any other type of setting. It's a role-playing game with a DM. Supernatural and magical abilities don't have to be looked upon as superheroes' abilities. The taste of a given magical item depends on the DM and the way the players handle them, in my opinion. Of course, if you've got players who want to play Superman in Ravenloft, you're going to have trouble conveying the mood of the setting.

Or... maybe not? I certainly can imagine Superman, paragon of virtue, trapped on Ravenloft. I think there was a comic book that had a similar plot with a near-disillusioned Superman in a world going down the trash. That's certainly playable.

Maybe you've looked at the other thread entitled "Gothic Games". There, I'm expressing an opinion about the feel of a gothic horror RPG session. Basically, I don't believe the feeling of horror relies on the weakening of the players' characters or at least, it doesn't have to be the case. I think it has a lot to do with the actual characters in play, and I'd add it also has a lot to do with the kind of DM's running the game for what kind of players, and how everyone wants to participate in the feel of the setting.

 

[Drew]

I daresay it does, because of I6 and because of the way the boxet set was designed. For D&D. Besides, I never said the boxed set couldn't be better designed. It could, if it was sticking more to D&D's core story.

I still don't see any evidence that Ravenloft (as a setting) has ever been about dungeon crawls and dragon fighting. Beyond I6, which is an adventure rather than a setting, the majority of the Ravenloft material that I've read seems to encourage just the opposite. From what I can tell, you seem to be talking about what Ravenloft should have been, not what the designers made it over the years.

In any case, thanks for your opinions. I think I see where you're coming from, and I don't want to take this to the point of argument or anything. A Ravenloft DM would probably benefit from your perspective and trying to keep a thread of "true D&D" within the gothic framework of the land of dread.

It seems to me like that may be a flaw from the campaign and not D&D.

The subject has been discussed time and time again.

The DM has a responsability in what items he allows, gives, sells to the PCs, like in any other D&D game using any other type of setting. It's a role-playing game with a DM. Supernatural and magical abilities don't have to be looked upon as superheroes' abilities. The taste of a given magical item depends on the DM and the way the players handle them, in my opinion. Of course, if you've got players who want to play Superman in Ravenloft, you're going to have trouble conveying the mood of the setting.

I would argue that 3E creates or at least encourages this kind of flaw (if it is indeed a flaw) by basing the game's balance so heavily on PCs acquiring newer and better magic items. I understand that its my job as DM to regulate this sort of thing, and I do. But really, why am I obligated to be such a micromanager? What's wrong with adjusting the rules at a more fundamental level to avoid having to carefully and painstakingly design every treasure?

I guess I still believe that the relative availability of magic can be an important component of a setting. In, say, Ptolus, D&D magic is considered commonplace, and the setting is designed with that in mind. Ravenloft, however, grew out of older editions of D&D that didn't assume a certain level of magical saturation.

Your superman example reminds me, though, that part of the fun of running Ravenloft is making the horror work within and next to the trappings of typical D&D. Its my favorite setting to run, although I've never done it under 3E. The soon to be released new Ravenloft book inspired me to pull out all my old Ravenloft stuff, which in turn inspired this thread. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts.

Maybe you've looked at the other thread entitled "gothic horror". There, I'm expressing an opinion about the feel of a gothic horror RPG session. Basically, I don't believe the feeling of horror relies on the weakening of the players' characters or at least, it doesn't have to be the case. I think it has a lot to do with the actual characters in play, and I'd add it also has a lot to do with the kind of DM's running the game for what kind of players, and how everyone wants to participate in the feel of the setting.

I'll take a look over there, sure. Thanks for your insights and opinions on this thread. Its been an enjoyable discussion.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The rules say the PCs should have a certain level of wealth - I don't recall anywhere there being a suggestion of exactly how the PCs get it. I think the "magic shop" is a construction by folks who play the game as an easy way of dealing with the wealth guidelines. It is by no means the only way of managing.

From the 3.5 DMG page 142 -

The magic items described in Chapter 7 all have prices. The assumption is that, while they are rare, magic items can be bought or sold much as any other commodity can be. The prices given are far beyond the reach of almost everyone, but the very rich, including mid- to high- level PCs, can buy and sell these items or even have spellcasters make them to order. In very large cities, some shops might specialize in magic items if their clientele is very wealthy or includes a large number of adventurer [sic] (and such shops would have lots of magical protections to ward away thieves).

 

[Odhanan]

From what I can tell, you seem to be talking about what Ravenloft should have been, not what the designers made it over the years.

Know what Drew? Maybe I am, in fact. I guess the difference is that with the buildings included in the RL boxed set, with the way the twisting of magic items was done, the way things like Turn Undead was underwhelmed, it meshed really well with AD&D's base concepts. I would have loved to see more symbiosis with D&D over the years instead of seeing RL walk in a different direction from it. That's a good point you make.

And really, thanks for this discussion. I'm glad we had this exchange. This made us both rethink our points of view, and even if we don't end in perfect agreement (I wonder if people ever do), it seems we both earned something from it.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

I've never played in Ravenloft, so take this with a grain of salt:

It seems to me that the default level of magic is fine. It would even be fine if the PCs had a bit more magic than normal.

The thing is, the magic the PCs have shouldn't be what they need. Much of it should be creepy, with side effects. There should be lots of cursed items, and very few items that nerf the abilities of the undead to really hose the PCs!

They definitely shouldn't be able to walk into a store and buy a Wand of Death Ward, for example. But a +1 Vampiric Greatsword sounds just fine.

Ken

 

[Iron_Chef]

Ravenloft should definitely be a magic and monster rare setting. Access to magic should be reserved to those who traffic with the dark powers only. Note I said magic rare, not low magic. Whenever magic and monsters are encountered, they should be powerful and scary, like in Call of Cthulhu. The D&D 3e power creep/video game "taint" will destroy the scare factor soon enough if you don't take drastic steps to limit PC access to magic.

Really, I think the whole Ravenloft setting, as written, is crappy monster mash nonsense. IMO, you are far better off ditching the setting and replacing it with a grim-n-gritty fantasy, maybe even historical earth setting and rules set. For example, Call of Cthulhu d20. However, I was fairly impressed with Avalanche Press' Vlad The Impaler d20 sourcebook which sets the action in Transylvania during the time of the real-life Dracula and assumes vampires, witches and ghosts (etc.) exist but are rarely encountered.

 

[Quartz]

IMO Ravenloft should be a non-flashy-magic setting, not a low magic setting. That +5 sword looks just like a +1 sword; spells like Fireball simply don't exist.

 

[Hussar]

Well, I'm not saying that magic should be thrown out the window. In the default 3E setting, PCs are assumed to have the means to simply purchase the items they want. As written, it seems to me that a party of means will be loading themselves up with animated shields, boots of striding and springing, and other things that just feel a bit "high magic" to me.

*snip*

Something to remember is how little magic the party actually has access to before double digit levels. A 7th level PC should have 19k gp in equipment. That's a +1 lumpy metal thing, +1 armor, +1 shield, assorted potions, and a minor wonderous item. It's not like it's massive magic. It isn't until double digit levels that magic items make a huge impact on the game. A fully tricked out 7th level fighter isn't much better than a non-magic 8th level fighter, if he's actually better at all.

One thing I learned runnign the World's Largest Dungeon, where there is nowhere to buy magic items and the party is totally dependent on what it can find, is that in the single digit levels, magic items have very, very little effect.

My advice, don't worry about the wealth levels unless you intend the PC's to get into the teen levels.