Should the DMG suggest improv and acting classes?

Yes, and it's often those sorts of players that are using leading questions to get the DM to agree on auto-success. It's a little game where they keep their ultimate goal and approach fairly obscure until all the complicating factors are eliminated. Then BAM, they act, as you say. It's clever, but unnecessary.

I thought this was how old-school D&D was suppose to work? Players had to be incredibly cautious and risk averse because most actions could not be considered safe and you were suppose to use lateral thinking to bypass basically everything. Knowing the rules wouldn't really help you figure out what was possible so you had to interact with the DM to figure out things work since every DM had a unique way of looking at things.
 

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iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I thought this was how old-school D&D was suppose to work? Players had to be incredibly cautious and risk averse because most actions could not be considered safe and you were suppose to use lateral thinking to bypass basically everything. Knowing the rules wouldn't really help you figure out what was possible so you had to interact with the DM to figure out things work since every DM had a unique way of looking at things.

The DM reaps what he or she sows.
 

alienux

Explorer
D&D is a game. Do you want to take acting lessons to play Monopoly? You can, if that's your thing. But it's not mandatory, nor even expected. Everyone approaches it the way they want to.

This is what I was going to reply with after reading the OP. It's a game, so I don't believe it should be in the DMG at all. However, if someone decided they want to take a couple of their classes, more power to them.
 

Imaro

Legend
Yeah I'm not seeing this as something that should be presented as an inherent part of the game. Just a few issues I see with this are...

1. It seems to set a higher bar of entry for DM's that's not necessary for every style of game
2. It pushes for a playtstyle that quite honestly may not be everyone's cup of tea and makes it seem inherent to the game when it doesn't have to be.
3. It may set the expectation that a DM should be running in a particular way with players when in actuality it is only one way of running the game.

That said if they did something like a DMG 2 and wanted to go in depth with different techniques for complementing a wide variety of playstyles, I'd have no problem with improv being suggested for the style or styles of games it would benefit most.
 


jasper

Rotten DM
There's a lot more to running a game then just the rules. But how can you get better on that non rules stuff. Would improv and acting lessons help? If so, should the DMG suggest it? Why or why not?

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Yes. But only at the "jasper's D&D Acting classes" Cost $100 an hour. 2 hour min. 10 persons min. "go with Jasper or be a disaster!".
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
There are many different facets of improvisation (the art form) that apply to RPGs and can be used by players and DMs alike. Some parts are more useful than others, and actually some parts will even seem to run counter to particular styles of Dungeon Mastering. At the end of the day, studying, practicing, and eventually hopefully mastering improvisation techniques will just add tools to your tool box if you choose to go in that direction. Not necessary, not a requirement, but definitely can make you a more comfortable player if you embrace them.

The biggest advantage is that it just makes you more comfortable making choices. In improv since there is no script whatsoever, the only way a scene can start and go forward is by someone making a choice and verbalizing it. You have to make a choice (any choice)-- whether that's a statement of who you are, how you are feeling, where you are, what you are doing, anything. You establish something and it is now true. It doesn't matter whether its good for you, bad for you, a risk, a walk in the park-- that stuff doesn't matter. All that matters is that you make a choice and impacted your reality. And just like in RPGs this is crucial. Your character in D&D has to make choices-- the story and the game do not progress if you don't. And while some players can get away with letting the DM push their character forward and make choices for them, becoming more comfortable making your own choices will just speed your game up, give you agency, and allow you to use your imagination more fully. The game will generally just be more fun if you allow yourself to make choices and see what results from them (good or bad). And improvisation teaches you that good or bad doesn't matter-- because you will always make another choice in another three seconds that will more you forward and perhaps turn you in another direction, so there's no reason to fear making a choice.

Improvisation is also wonderful in preparing you for being able to react to the unexpected. Indeed, the entirety of improvisation *is* reacting to unexpected circumstances, because you have no script, no dialogue, nothing established beforehand. You have no choice BUT to react. Sometimes you get to react to favorable circumstances, sometimes you need to react to really bad circumstances. But once you've done it enough times, you become inured to it. As a player or performer, it no longer panics you when something "bad" has happened. Whether that's within the story itself, or even "out-of-game". All these things are just new choices that have been offered to you, and you react to them as honestly and in-character as you can. Which is why you'll sometimes hear people mention in improv that "there are no mistakes". And there's a reason for that-- if you just react to everything that happens as it happens, whatever "mistake" occurred will just get incorporated into what the story is.

In RPGs this is a fantastic tool for a DM. Because you no longer "sweat the small stuff". If you've thrown an encounter at your players and they absolutely decimate it... no big deal. You react to it. Is this encounter meant to be a throw-away? Then you let them have their easy victory. Was it meant to be a climactic battle? Then F-it... throw in another wave of monsters. Or have an earthquake start bringing the caverns down on their head. Or come up with something else. But at the very least, you won't panic that the encounter didn't turn out the way you were expecting, which would only result in you either getting defensive and upset, or you start making choices without consideration in an attempt to "save" the situation (and will be much more obvious to the players as "ploys" to save the DM's precious story and will be seen as possibly "unfair" tactics).

Being comfortable with reacting results in many fewer "oh SH!%$!" moments on the part of the DM, and thus anything you do will come off as just a regular part of the story being told and make it much more palatable to the players (since in truth they will have had no idea that what just occurred wasn't meant to occur all along.)

And finally there's also just (as was mentioned above) the team-building and cooperation aspect to improvisation and the game. You are all in this together. If you want the scene or the game to work, you need to listen to one another, support one another, be comfortable with one another, respect one another. In improv-as-performance you HAVE to do this because there's an audience out there watching you do it. And if you can't trust your fellow performers, then you shouldn't expect a high batting average of success. And likewise at the game table... if you can't expect your wacky choices to be supported by your teammates (and if you don't support your teammates' wacky choice either), then the very fabric of the game will slowly unravel. It might take several months, or it could occur in just several sessions... but you'll be able to sense it right away when it's not coming together. And at least by having trained in improvisation you will have learned a better sense of what will and won't work so that at least YOU weren't the person that caused the unraveling in the first place.

At the end of the day, the biggest detriment to both improv and D&D is fear. Fear of screwing up. Fear of disappointing people. Fear of looking bad. And performers and players will throw up roadblocks all along the way in order to shield themselves from the things that cause that fear. But what you'll eventually find is that those very roadblocks you put up aren't shielding you from the things you fear... they are directly responsible for them. Because those roadblocks are what keep you from making strong choices, and trusting your fellow players to react to them... and them then making choices and you then reacting off of them.

If you can get past your fear, then a whole new world will open up. And studying improv is a fantastic way of doing that.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Yeah I'm not seeing this as something that should be presented as an inherent part of the game.
I agree, but...

1. It seems to set a higher bar of entry for DM's that's not necessary for every style of game
Just establishing a desired style of play sets a pretty high bar for the DM, in the first place. I'd be more conserned about further raising the bar for players, and making the game that much less accessible...

I thought this was how old-school D&D was suppose to work? Players had to be incredibly cautious and risk averse because most actions could not be considered safe and you were suppose to use lateral thinking to bypass basically everything.
Yes.
Knowing the rules wouldn't really help you figure out what was possible so you had to interact with the DM to figure out things work since every DM had a unique way of looking at things.
Still true in 5e, really - part of DM Empowerment.


At the very least it just improves the narrative flow of the game and to some extent the pacing and it reinforces the basic conversation of the game (the three-step loop, I mean).
Sure. It is a departure for the classic game, in which there weren't skills like perception or investigation to resolve whether a PC found something, so it was '20 questions'/'pixel-bitching' to notice/find anything. And, as much as I enjoy the nostalgia of 5e evoking the classic game, I'm OK with it not doing so in that particular instance... ;)

Well, a clever solution to the challenge presented in that sort of game, I mean. :)
Maybe it was clever c1980. Maybe I've just been exposed to it too much.

The challenge in my view being a DM who is more apt to saying "No" than "Yes, and..." The clever player tricks the DM into saying "Yes" or, as you say, destroys the grounds on which the DM could possibly say "No." I bet most of us have been the "No" DM at some point. As I recall, back on the old WotC DM forums, the whole "Yes, and..." thing was pretty controversial...
Still seems to be, but, like I alluded to above, it wasn't just a reaction to the 'Just say No to PCs' style, but to the limitations of the system, as well. The system hasn't addressed all those issues, and has some new ones to encourage DM Empowerment, so any 'clever' tactic that might get the DM to rule/narrate in your favor must seem like a good idea.
 

Illithidbix

Explorer
I'm a dirty, dirty LARPist, and most the people I play tabletop RP with also LARP.

And we tend to favour the active/actor roleplay style.

But no, I have zero interest in improv and acting; roleplay *isnt* acting although I'm sure there are many transferable skills, I also think there are many things about (some) improv acting which are quite counter to roleplay, despite seeming very similar at first glance.

Improv acting is fundamentally for an audience, roleplay is for participants.
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
There's a lot more to running a game then just the rules. But how can you get better on that non rules stuff. Would improv and acting lessons help? If so, should the DMG suggest it? Why or why not?

Honestly, I've found behavioral conditioning with both positive and negative reinforcements to be much more effective.

A little buzz on the shock collar when the players talk out of character, a little food and water as a reward when they do a good job. It all adds up.

Sure, the barbarian player has a persistent eye twitch now and the rogue player has developed Tourette's Syndrome, but their ability to stay focused on the game and in character has increased dramatically.
 

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