D&D 5E Should the Fighter's "Second Wind" ability grant temporary HP instead of regular HP?

[LFK]

The only modular rule one needs in D&D to make it make sense is...

...a waste of time, because it interacts with Hit Points, and nothing that interacts with hit points will ever truly make sense unless you let your eyes relax and just stare into the middle distance without thinking about it too much.

 

[Obryn]

Every time I see people argue in favor of HP meaning whatever you want it to mean, is done so for a strictly gamist reason without regard to narrative consistency. It's just a facile rationalisation for game mechanical reasons, which places zero value on the game having meaning.

The reason you see it is because hit points make no sense. There is no physiological analogue to them. They are a nonsensical measure at the core, and serious attempts to try and "define" them are futile. So you pick whatever definition makes the closest narrative sense based on what you want out of your gameplay experience.

It's done for a strictly gamist reason because they are a 100% purely gamist mechanic that everyone tries to backfill with meaning and significance. Or, in other words,

nothing that interacts with hit points will ever truly make sense unless you let your eyes relax and just stare into the middle distance without thinking about it too much.

 

[pemerton]

If HP is stamina, why do barbarians get Temp HPs? That was a 3rd ed invention

3E barbarians don't get temp hp. They get a hp boost, and then suffer downstream damage equal to that hp boost as their CON returns to normal.

What's the point of enabling a "lingering wound" module in the DMG when fighters, the guys who spend the most time fighting and getting injured in melee combat, can just summarily ignore them?

Have you read the module, and how it interacts with second wind or other hp recovery mechanics? What makes you think that fighters can ignore lingering wounds? In 4e, for instance, lingering wounds are handled on the disease track. Fighters have no special ability to ignore the disease track (although they are more likely to have good Endurance, and hence have a better chance of recovery).

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Nice strawman. You went from "Hit" and "Damage" to mortal wound just to try to portray being hit as "Ridiculous" while ignoring the fact that being hit and wounded doesn't have to mean fatal wound.

Also, yes, even at the extreme degree you strawmanned, it works better. Because the alternative is a fighter who was in hundreds of combats and has never been hit, just tired. I can easily describe any hit on a Fighter as causing a wound of undefined severity but presumed minimal and it would be plausible to anyone, even my grandparents. If I tried to describe every hit in hand to hand combat on a fighter as a "Near Miss" over hundreds or thousands of hits, very few people are going to buy it. Never mind the inevitable "If my dodging out of the way of an attack tires me, why doesn't attacking tire me? Why is it that at level 1 I lose half of my HP's dodging a goblin swinging at me because it tires me, but I could swing at a tree for 16 hours and I don't become tired?"

I'm with you. I've never understood either extreme side of the HP debate. I don't agree with hits being "near misses" nor do I agree with the idea that as you level up, you just shrug off being whaled on with an axe because you're so "tough".

Clearly (IMO), as you level up, you get better at rolling with hits so as to turn a blow that once might have killed you into something that is only a minor scrape, taking arrows to your better armoured bits, and dealing with the pain and shock that would cause lesser people to give up and collapse (this last bit being why I don't mind 2nd Wind, in spite of otherwise disagreeing with too much of HP being things like "fatigue" and "near misses (ugh!)"

A hit is a hit, but if it doesn't kill you, it's never a mortal wound.

 

[Jester David]

I like it better as temporary hitpoints (and believe temp hp has a place in the game). But I understand and accept the reasoning behind it being actual hp, so it's not deal breaking.

 

[Tovec]

3E barbarians don't get temp hp. They get a hp boost, and then suffer downstream damage equal to that hp boost as their CON returns to normal.

I'm unclear on the exact arguments in this thread. But would what pemerton says here be a good compromise or something that satisfies neither side?

Basically, not temporary HP that are first lost. (I'm not sure of the real argument here against it, but I'm wondering if making them not first lost would work?)

But also not permanent HP that last indefinitely that "heal" the fighter. (Something the other side seems to find bad and thus why they want it to go away and not just stay healed through non-magical means.)

Just a temporary pool of HP that are consumed and lost in a batch? (Like the Barbarian's "Extra HP" from 3e's rage.) Adding as many as you take away. Because personally I have no problem with this solution (second wind bothers me as is) but I would think that it is a stronger version of "temp HP" that my side seems to want. So I'm curious what others think. Why this is or is not a solution.

 

[Chaltab]

Attacking doesn't tire you or cause loss of combat effectiveness, therefore Second Wind stating that HP is stamina is a non sequitur that is just a rationalisation for people who hate clerics and wanting mundane characters to have a natural regeneration ability for purely power gaming reasons.

Seriously? Come off it man. This isn't even remotely related to power gaming. Who even does power-gaming aside from children* and adults with the maturity of children? If that's who you're playing D&D with then no system is going to fix it.

*not even all children probably

 

[pemerton]

not temporary HP that are first lost. (I'm not sure of the real argument here against it, but I'm wondering if making them not first lost would work?)

Personally I like 2nd wind as healing - that's my 4e inclinations showing!

But I think temp hp are the worst option, because they encourage you to use 2nd wind early (to get the temp hp) and then when they are lost, they are no more temporary than other hp. So the people who don't like 2nd wind as "real" hp still don't get what they want; and the people like me who want 2nd wind as more about resurgence than preparation don't get what they want either. Which seems a bad outcome.

I think the 3e-barbarian-style option makes 2nd wind a lot weaker, but at least it still makes it about resurgence rather than prep, and it makes it genuinely temporary as the critics of the current version are looking for.

 

[jadrax]

To b perfectly honest, I don't really see that Temporary Hitpoints add much to the game apart from additional fiddly book-keeping.

 

[am181d]

Second Wind is the "pick yourself up off the mat" ability. The fighter looks like he's down for the count but he sucks it up, shakes it off, and keeps fighting. Given that this happens all the time in the real world (in televised events no less) it's surprising that people continue to dismiss this ability as unrealistic...