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D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

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JamesonCourage

Adventurer
Honestly, what you really want is in books of marketing research and the like- not well represented on the Internet. And I'm not in the business of tracking down quotes from textbooks to prove a point on the Internet. However, there is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_in_advertising
Honestly, what I'd prefer is a posting style that isn't "my take on things is well known; what, you doubt me? Look it up, it's easy to find. You want sources? I mean, you can find that with some research, even though it's easy enough to find, but I'll find this picture to link you, instead."

I'm aware of "sex in advertising" in a passing sense (I've done no studies on it), and I agree it's a thing, though. But that wasn't really my point to KM.
It points out the history of sex in ads, and some of ths studies that have led to the marketing motto: "Sex sell." It also notes that some recent studies showing the occasional backlash or lack of correlation.

What I learned in pursuing my MBA in marketing was "Sex sells...but it doesn't sell everything." And in some cases, other images are more appealing to the target market. It isn't an accident that you see a lot of dragons on the covers of FRPG products and fantasy novels, for instance.

Still, even the most recent research doesn't overturn the concept that the link between using sexual imagery and attracting males aged 13-21 is pretty solid.
Yeah, this all sounds about right, to me. Thanks for the thoughtful post, Danny (even though that's not your real name!). And, side note, I saw a guy at the gym last night who was sticking to weights, and he looked just about how I envision you. Made me think of you, briefly. As always, play what you like :)
 

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JamesonCourage

Adventurer
While the discussion over what is the right thing to do is interesting, even if there is disagreement on what is right, for WOTC their overriding "right" has to be fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders. They are morally obligated to do the best they can for the people who have invested in the company, and I've no doubt that that's what they'll do.
Just a note, but I don't consider "moral obligation to provide for investors" to supersede all other moral obligations. But, yes, I imagine they'll aim for maximum profits, however they need to go about that. As always, play what you like :)
 

Nellisir

Hero
I have not read this entire thread, nor do I care to, so I'll just say what I do.

In my Swords & Wizardry classes (on my blog), I've made an effort to use both male and female pronouns (but not interchangeably), and without regard for character class. If anything, I have to fight the urge to always use "she" or "her". I haven't counted how many of each I've done, but hopefully it's close to 50/50.

Racially, my demi-humans hew pretty closely to whats traditional, but I try to make humans diverse.

I don't care what is true "historically"; it's a fantasy game world.
 

CroBob

First Post
The issue with "it's okay if it's both sexes!" is simply that the art exists within a cultural context. I don't think it's radical to propose that nearly-naked sorceresses and mighty-thewed barbarians mean something different when found in D&D art. Particularly in D&D culture and in "geek" culture in general, there's simply not an equivalence right now. It'd be awesome for the game to exist in a culture where "nearly-naked men" and "nearly-naked women" mean the same thing, but we don't.

-O

Maybe not, but I also think that two people in revealing clothing are thought of in certain ways due to the person perceiving them, too. Why does a sorceress and a barbarian, both equally partially nude, mean something different except because guys like looking at half naked women whereas women are shown not to be as visual, sexually speaking, as men? The only reason the babrarian isn't as "sexualized" is because people aren't as sexually attracted to the half-naked barbarian due to his appearance as they are the sorceress. There's really no countering that, so long as you treat the both equally sexually or non-sexually in art-style.
 

The Choice

First Post
D&D pronouns being 50-50% male-female pronouns seems a little like pandering to me, frankly.

No, it isn't. The world's population is roughly 50-50% male-female, the fictional universe in which D&D games exist have about the same demographics, so it's perfectly representative of reality to use both pronouns.

It's simply unbelievable that most battle forces inspired by medieval combat parties would follow modern labour hiring standards.

It is when you consider that this is a fantasy world populated by orcs, ogres, and other nasties. Most (non-noble) girls probably learn to swing a club or an axe from their daddy or mommy as soon as they are able to lift one.

Also, there is no negative stigma associated with strong-buff chicks in the world(s) of D&D; there's a lot of money to be made plundering tombs and nobody's gonna bat an eye at a girl decked out in chain, carrying a big-ass axe into a dungeon or onto a battlefield.

Now D&D is not Game of Thrones, and I want as many women to enjoy this hobby as possible (or at least tolerate it), I just think they've already done quite enough since 3.0 already. It was odd at first, seeing so many "she's" and hers in front of descriptions of knights and barbarians and so on, but after you get over that, you still must admit it is a little contrived to imagine a 50-50 split in every party of male to female characters, let alone players, to warrant the IMO extreme and very obvious way the authors are trying to bring an old-boys-club into the 21st century.
Why is that contrived if it correctly represents the demographics of the fictional universe? It isn't. I've never consistently played with groups with an even 50-50 split (it happened a few times on game-days, and such), but in my close-to 20 years of gaming, I can say I played/ran maybe 2-3 games where there wasn't at least one woman/girl at the table (exluding a player's/DM's girlfriend, even).

So yeah, if WotC wants the hobby to grow (and we all know they do), it isn't pandering to go out and make an effort to be more inclusive to female gamers and potential female gamers (it would be pandering if they only made the effort to seem more inclusive).

I just don't see want authors of adventures to feel the need to walk on eggshells and portray warmongering orc tribes as being PC and respecting women, for example, because it might offend someone's sensibilities.
They don't need to make an "evil" race respect women (again, a problem with alignment applied to whole cultures/race), but orcs are a problem because of their innate... rapey-ness, so I won't get too much into that subject.

Game of Thrones is terrific in this sense, and a model to follow. Women are strong and bold and fierce, sometimes, and men can be cowardly and cry and frail too, but 99.9999% of the time, knights and soldiers are men, and are the first ones to have their guts torn out on the battlefield. This is true in history as well, so it's no wonder our fiction reflects that.

Why should D&D fiction reflect something that isn't true for it. The entire universe is submerged with magic; there's a class where you spontaneously becomes a spellcaster and magic can be taught. Equality for women in the D&D universe(s) isn't just a vague hope, it's (or at the very least should be) a long-acquiered fact. Nobody's gonna push a woman aside and tell her to go make him a sandwich when that girl can very well burn your face clean off (or break your nose with a flurry of blows, or shatter your brain with a thought, etc.). Women (or females of the appropriate humanoid species) make up 50% of the adventuring workforce, because, otherwise, the world the rules paint would make no sense.

It is what it is. Fantasy doesn't need to conform to reality, and shouldn't, but there is a certain...contrivedness about trying to PC everything. I like strong female characters, but don't want sanitized adventures or text blocks that are so redacted as to not risk offending anyone, ever, because that is an impossible task. Tons of stuff offends me, I vote with my dollars. To follow that credo, if a gender-neutral "he" offends, perhaps boycotting the 99.99999% of human literature would be a better place to start than a hobby in which the stakes are so low.

I had to literally bribe and beg my last two girlfriends to even try D&D....let's face it, this game doesn't, and probably never will have broad appeal across all demographics. Being PC is good, but being overly PC is just annoying. Somebody, somewhere, will get offended by good literature. Tons of critiques of Games of Thrones are centered around its medieval depiction of women's roles in society, failing to grasp : that's the point. It's actually far more progressive than the actual middle ages were, even all the torture and violence and small-mindedness and bigotry had nothing on the real thing. Let's all be happy that we can laugh about it now.

Nobody's gonna die over a few pronouns or hurt sensibilities.

It isn't contrived and it isn't being "PC" (that term needs to be set on fire, beaten with a shovel and buried at the bottom of the deepest freakin' ocean, especially when it is being misappropriated like that). It is just common sense and good business practice. "Sensibilities" aren't being "hurt", entire segments of the population are being kept away from a game they might enjoy because old, white men think only other old or prebuscent white men will want to buy their product. That's not the case, and this thread, and many other on other forums are a proof of that.
 

The Choice

First Post
Maybe not, but I also think that two people in revealing clothing are thought of in certain ways due to the person perceiving them, too. Why does a sorceress and a barbarian, both equally partially nude, mean something different except because guys like looking at half naked women whereas women are shown not to be as visual, sexually speaking, as men? The only reason the babrarian isn't as "sexualized" is because people aren't as sexually attracted to the half-naked barbarian due to his appearance as they are the sorceress. There's really no countering that, so long as you treat the both equally sexually or non-sexually in art-style.

The barbarian in your exemple isn't sexualized because he is a male power-fantasy insert, not something a girl gets off on. If he was a female idealized man, he wouldn't look like what you'd expect.

(There was a comic related to this, dealing with the portrayal of superheroes, but I can't find it at the moment.)
 
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CroBob

First Post
The barbarian in your exemple isn't sexualized because he is a male power-fantasy insert, not something a girl gets off on. If he was a female idealized man, he wouldn't look like what you'd expect.

(there was a comic related to this, dealing with the portrayal of superheroes, but I can't find it at the moment.

That's exactly my point. The only reason he's not as sexualized is because people don't find what he is sexy, even when the art itself makes both hypothetical people are wearing equally revealing clothing and are in as sexually charged a relative position as the other. The art treats them the same, but there's still inequality in sexualization due to the perciever thereof.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Translation: "I like the status quo just fine. Male heroes and male pronouns should stay the default because that's just how it's supposed to be. I don't want to make any effort to be inclusive of women in this hobby. Oh, and no women seem to want to play this game with me. I wonder why that is?"


About half a thread back, I gave a warning about how things started getting ugly and personal.

That warning still holds.

Don't make it personal. Do not "translate" for others. Do not assume that because you feel you know the general mindset of people, that you know the actual mindset of a particular person. That is stereotyping, and it gets in the way of open and candid conversation. It is also rude. Please don't do it.
 

Gorgoroth

Banned
Banned
Maybe not, but I also think that two people in revealing clothing are thought of in certain ways due to the person perceiving them, too. Why does a sorceress and a barbarian, both equally partially nude, mean something different except because guys like looking at half naked women whereas women are shown not to be as visual, sexually speaking, as men? The only reason the babrarian isn't as "sexualized" is because people aren't as sexually attracted to the half-naked barbarian due to his appearance as they are the sorceress. There's really no countering that, so long as you treat the both equally sexually or non-sexually in art-style.

I find that's somewhat true, but not entirely. When I bought Age of Conan MMO, I enjoyed the non-PC, non-sanitized, non-childlike overt sexuality and adult themes. I'm an adult, why not? My girlfriend at the time also told me she enjoyed the barbarian character I was playing, and wasn't offended in the slightest at my luring around the slave girl at the beginning (despite being a feminist university professor at an Ivy League uber PC faculty). It's called having some perspective. D&D books cannot, and will not, and should not be here as a vehicle for some orwellian progressive social renaming of gender-neutral pronouns in its books. For some reason women are less interested in physics and math at the university level, despite being provably just as able in those topics. They simply aren't interested. It's the honest truth. Same thing with D&D. I will stand by this : I doubt that no matter how Star Trek-like we ever become, this particular hobby, in this particular manner of playing, for whatever reason not related to offputting sexist or degrading imagery or over-use of "he" in books, will never be 50-50. If you think so, you clearly need to look around more at the gaming stores. There are some really cool geek girls out there, but they are far and few in between, and calling every 1 in 2 paladins in the PHB a "she" will do LITTLE OR NOTHING to change that. How do I know this? Because they already did so, thirteen years ago, with 3.0. I know there are gamer girls out there, and I'd love for there to be more, but it WAS pandering to use "she" half the time. She is not gender-neutral. I've read thousands of books and not in a single one of them did some author begin a sentence describing a soldier or a knight as "she" without context. It is simply absurdist pandering and a transparent ploy to sell more books. Which, as we know, largely failed.

Hate this post all you want, Obryn, but I speaketh the truth and you know it.
 

Jacob Marley

Adventurer
While the discussion over what is the right thing to do is interesting, even if there is disagreement on what is right, for WOTC their overriding "right" has to be fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders. They are morally obligated to do the best they can for the people who have invested in the company, and I've no doubt that that's what they'll do.

Over what term? I'm a value investor with a fairly long-term investment horizon. I own Habro stock. What I want from WotC is to maximize the ROI over the life of the product (say 5-7 years), and lay the groundwork to maximize the ROI in D&D 2020, 2030, etc. I know that white heterosexual males are a shrinking demographic (here, page 21) in the United States. I don't believe WotC can maximize the ROI catering to that demographic alone.

I think WotC has done a good job over the past few years with art direction regarding Magic: the Gathering. There seems to be a good balance between strongly portrayed males and females, as well as maintaining a good racial/ethnic mix. I think it would be wise for Jon Schindehette to look to M:tG as an example of what to do, more so than Paizo, IMHO.
 

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