D&D 3E/3.5 Skill Challenges in D&D 3.5

[Michael Silverbane]

As for setting the DCs: That's kind of what the framework I was proposing was working towards.

You want a Skill Challenge with an effective Challenge Rating of X. Dcs for skill checks should be based on X, say X + 14 just to pick a number. so a CR 1 Skill Challenge has Skill checks with a DC of 15. If your group is going to be a bit weak in some areas, call for more skill checks in that area, but lower the individual skill check DC by one or two per additional required dice roll.

I think that because of the way that skills progress in type III D&D, a flat add is not going to be useful. You may need a table, with for DC by CR, where maybe CR 1 is 15 and CR 2 is 18, and CR 3 is 22 and so on (I too am unsure about the specific numbers). You might have different numbers for a skill that is directly related to the challenge (Survival for tracking a group across the wilderness) and skills that are indirectly related, but still might be useful (Knowledge (geography) for knowing about an abandoned structure that the group could be heading towards).

In addition, it would be useful if there was some other way that characters could contribute, outside of skill use, since skills are distributed unevenly across the classes. Perhaps the Fighter's Endurance feat allows his to help push the party to march just a bit further than they would otherwise be able to, contributing an effective success to the effort. Or maybe the cleric's lesser restoration alleviates the party's fatigue, ameliorating the effects of a failure.

 

[Teemu]

Ok, let’s consider a couple of examples.

You have a 3rd-level party with the typical warrior, skill-user, arcane caster, and divine caster. They’re facing a social type skill challenge where the most relevant skills would be things like Bluff, Diplomacy, Perform, Sense Motive, and maybe some Knowledge skills. A 3rd-level PC’s best skills would probably range from about +8 to +14 (7 ranks, +1 to +4 ability modifier, synergies, possible skill boosting feats), and their worst skills would be anywhere from -1 to +4.

Let’s assume the appropriately challenging skill challenge uses DC 15 as the baseline for “moderate” checks (or whatever word you want to assign). If you’re good at social skills (skill-user most likely, warrior possibly one and maybe none, casters could have one or two), you’re going to pass those checks about 70% to 100% of the time, and if you’re bad at them, you have about 25% to 50% chance of succeeding on the checks. And if you’ve put some ranks and maybe have an okay modifier, it’s anywhere between those probabilities.

That’s a fairly balanced range of successes there. Obviously the best social adepts will be trying to make most of the checks, but even if your character lacks pertinent skills, you could still roll well and contribute to the challenge.

Let’s suppose a higher level party, this time at level 9 with the same group. A level 9 character’s best skills could range from about +13 to +29 (12 ranks, +1 to +6 ability modifier [items, leveling], synergies, feats, class features, magic items, etc.), and their worst skills would still be around -1 to +6 (ability boosting magic items more likely).

How do you keep the characters with no relevant skill training active in the skill challenge? What’s a good “moderate” DC that’ll keep the best from auto-succeeding yet still offer some chance of success to the non-specialist? DC 15 is pretty okay for the untrained ones, as they can succeed on a good roll – but it’s absolutely trivial to the characters who specialize in those skills. DC 25 would be a lot better considering the skill bonuses of the PCs who’re good at social challenges, but then the characters with no or few ranks in the relevant skills would either never succeed or have about a 5% to 10% chance of success.

The same party at level 15 would have characters that can never succeed on skill checks that the other party members auto-succeed.

Hence, it’s nigh-impossible to set the skill check DCs in a 3.5 skill challenge. At low levels it works pretty well, but the more levels the party gains, the more difficult it becomes to create appropriate challenges.

 

[Greenfield]

With DCs of 15 you're proposing a CR1 skill challenge. Should be close to a gimme for any of the parties listed.

So how does the Fighter with the 8 Int, who has Level + 3 skill points, total (2 per level -1 for Int modifier = 1 per level) contribute? Particularly when the Social skill challenge involves skills that are all cross-class?

While details of the challenge matter, at a minimum he can attempt to Aid Another at something. The skills you described are Wisdom and Charisma based. Unless he made all three dump stats (Int, Cha and Wis), he'll be at a -0 in at least one of those areas. He has a 55% chance of succeeding on his Aid Another check. And that's true at any level.

One thing to be aware of is which checks are critical, where failure in one roll means failure in the entire enterprise.

For example, in your social scenario, if the famous (or infamous) Barbarian introduces himself to the Lady of the house, loudly and by name, and begins to brag of the monsters he's killed, and the women he's taken in his career.

In essence, a player someplace decided to have their unskilled character "contribute", and rolled a 1. Or maybe the player himself has decided to blow this one off and get back to killing things, who knows.

In that moment, the party failed. There is no recovery from that one.

In a stealth scenario, say the party is trying to sneak past the perimeter guards of an enemy encampment. One failed stealth check and the whole thing is blow, the jig is up.

Say the party has a Paladin, all glowy/shiny in his armor, whose plate mail gives him a total negative on his stealth check. He's not going to be able to roll even a 10 to Aid Another, and there probably aren't enough Aid Another dice in the world to let him make it. How does he get by, or even help?

By being creative: He can't enter that camp unseen and he knows it. He clanks when he stands still. So he decides to enter the camp, seen. He presents himself at the front gate, asking for an audience with the commander. Attention will be given to that area, drawing guards away from other spots, and distracting others.

He (or she, let's not be sexist) has thought of a way to use Bluff, a Charisma based skill that he/she is better equipped for, instead of the Stealth check. The player's found a viable way to substitute one skill for another, and thus gain a possible Success in the challenge.

So it's important for a DM, in any system or scenario, to keep an open mind. Players should always be allowed to propose alternate solutions in any Skill challenge.

Over all, a Dm has to "Wear two hats". When planning an encounter, he plays the part of the enemy, laying traps, planning defenses, distributing forces or planning the use of spells. The DM is, at that moment, the adversary of the party, and should be working towards their defeat and/or destruction.

However, once play starts the DM has to "change hats". No longer the adversary, the job now changes to impartial arbitrator of the rules. It's now okay to root for the PCs, as long as you handle things with an open mind and an even hand.

And that last part says, if the players propose an alternative solution, one you as DM didn't see or consider, it's okay to say "Yes".