Skill Master Prestige Class - Comments?

[the_bruiser]

In the campaign I’m currently running, the party rogue wants to expand his role into more of a scholarly / professorial role. He and I have worked together to make a prestige class in which he can maximize certain skills and, through teaching others, his cohorts and followers.

The class below is our second version. The basic trade-off is a slower sneak attack progression and special rogue skills (basically, slightly worse fighting skills) for better skills and followers. A quick note – in the past our groups have focused too much on combat, so I’m more than willing to (over-?) compensate someone who foregoes combat skill for non-combat expertise.

Do you think the class is properly balanced? Is it interesting / worthwhile?




Skill Master Prestige Class

Skill Masters are true Renaissance men, intent on building their skills to higher and higher degrees. Every peculiar craft, each obscure branch of knowledge, and all skills hold an appeal for these eclectic individuals. They are as likely to be found knitting as scaling a castle wall, and show respect for artisans of all types.

Their love of learning new skills is matched only by their desire to share them. With a unique insight and ability to relate a new skill to one already known, they are master teachers and often are found as tutors or professors. Most also take on full time apprentices.

Skills Masters often spend their earlier years as rogues, bards, and occasionally rangers. Fighters, wizards and priests rarely abandon their studies for such an unfocused life.

Hit Die: d6.

Requirements
Alignment: Any
Abilities: Int. 13+
Feats: Leadership, Skill Focus
Skills: Profession (Teaching): 10 ranks, Diplomacy: 5 ranks, Knowledge (any): 5 ranks
Other: Must be introduced to class by a Skill Master of 3rd level or higher.


Level AT FORT REF WILL
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Tutor, Mentor
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Master Skill Focus, Sneak Attack +1d6
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Leadership +1
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Master Skill Focus, Calm Nerves 8
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Transcendent Skill
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Master Skill Focus, Sneak Attack +1d6, Leadership +1
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Calm Nerves 13
8th +6 +2 +6 +6 Master Skill Focus
9th +6 +3 +6 +6 Leadership +1
10th +7 +3 +7 +7 Master Skill Focus, Sneak Attack +1d6, Calm Nerves 18


Class Features:

Broken into three categories - rogue (R), teaching (T), and learning (L)

Skill Points at Each Level (R): 8 + Int. Modifier

Class Skills (R): Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int, exclusive skill), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Innuendo (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Intuit Direction (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge:Any (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Pick Pocket (Dex), Profession (Wis), Read Lips (Int, exclusive skill), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha, exclusive skill), and Use Rope (Dex).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency (R): Weapon training focuses on weapons suitable for stealth and sneak attacks. Thus, all Skill Masters are proficient with the crossbow (hand or light), dagger (any type), dart, light mace, sap, shortbow (normal and composite), and short sword. Medium-size Skill Masters are also proficient with certain weapons that are too big for Small characters to use and conceal easily: club, heavy crossbow, heavy mace, morningstar, quarterstaff, and rapier. Skill Masters are proficient with light armor but not with shields.

Sneak Attack (R): Any time the character's target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the character flanks the target, the character's attack deals extra damage. Should the character score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can only count as sneak attacks if the target is within 30 feet. The character can't strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

Tutor (T): Once per day per class level, the character can train someone in how to perform a particular feat or skill. To teach a skill, the character makes a Profession: Teaching check, and the recipient gains a temporary number of ranks in that skill equal to rounddown((check-10)/5,0). Neither the number of temporary ranks granted nor the total effective ranks held by the recipient can exceed the number of ranks held by the teacher. To teach a feat, the activity is DC25, the teacher must have the feat, and the student must meet all criteria to gain the feat. In either case, the effective temporary ranks or temporary feats gained last for 24 hours.

Mentor (T): The cohort of a Skill Master gains an extra skill point per level.

Leadership (T): The Skill Master’s reputation for teaching and nurturing becomes more widely known. At each of the indicated levels, increase the Skill Master’s leadership score by one for purposes of determining number of followers. These bonuses are cumulative and permanent.

Master Skill Focus (L): Skill Masters can take Master Skill Focus in a skill in which they have four or more ranks. The skills gain a +2 masterful competence bonus and will thereafter be considered a class skill for the character regardless of what future classes are taken by the Skill Master. This bonus stacks with the Skill Focus feat.

Transcendent Skill (L): The Skill Master is not limited in the number of ranks he can apply toward skills for which he has Master Skill Focus.

Calm Nerves (L): The Skill Master may take the indicated result rather than rolling a d20 when making skill checks in skills for which he has Master Skill Focus.

 

[Technik4]

I see what you are going for, but it seems too powerful to me. Lets take it from the top:

Prcs rarely restrict based on ability scores, if you want to set the bar require a feat that requires that ability score - its a roundabout way of doing it, but it doesnt feel like youre penalizing someone for low int.

You didn't specify what skill focus had to be in. Perhaps Skill Focus in one of the skills required to get in the class?

Now, most of the time with a heavily skill-based theme you want to require many skills as the prerequisite. You have one big skill that most people don't take (Profession (Teaching)) but the number of ranks almost implies that you have been teaching for some time. Personally I think the requirements should show someone with a skilled background something like:

Craft (Any) 8 ranks
Knowledge (Any) 8 ranks
Perform (Any) 8 ranks
Profession (Any) 8 ranks
Speak, Read, and Write in at least 5 languages

Thats a very general but strong skill requirement. To get into the prc at the earliest levels, you are maxing 4 skills that you probably dont use on a regular basis. I realize you are writing this prc for a character, so perhaps that is not the best basis for your group.

I agree with the good Will save, teachers are usually people with very capable minds. The reflex save seems reminiscent of the rogue, but this prc doesn't seem to have anything to do with quickness, speed, or reflexes. For instance, both uncanny dodge and evasion and improved evasion are nowhere to be found, and those are "reflexy" rogue basics.

Similarly, while you think that you are cutting back on a lot of sneak attack damage, you will only be +2d6 behind by taking 10 levels of this class. Considering you have bolstered your will save considerably, as well as gained a massive number of skill benefits, that may or may not be overpowered.

Mentor is fine, one of my suggestions was going to be raising the skills per level to 10, but dividing it into an ability works too.

Temporarily teaching skills and feats is a neat idea, but I would try and curb abuse a little harder. A 3rd level Skill Master could teach the whole group how to use rapid (or point-blank) shot with little trouble (DC 25 is not too hard to overcome with a decent wis and Skill Focus). Alternately, he could teach everyone how to hide, or train someone else to be a Skill Master (and the new skill master could train 1 other person something they knew). It probably won't get out of hand in your group, but its something to keep in mind. Thus I think Tutor is a little too powerful.

Leadership bonus is cool, not very powerful, but good flavor.

Master Skill Focus: This is a fairly good ability. For instance, lets say Im designing a ftr/rog. I decide to go straight rogue for 7 levels, grab 2 levels in this prc, then ride ftr for the next 10 or so levels. Master Skill Focus lets me get Tumble as a class skill for all my ftr levels, or any other skill I want to continue.

Transcendant Skill is even more broken. As soon as I get this I can just dump rank after rank into something, ensuring I will never ever fail a check. Like never fail one of those perform teaching checks since I have +25 bonus (only takes Skill Focus, Master Skill Focus and one level of dumping points into it. granted a lot of effort, but the payoff is pretty large).

Of course once I get calm nerves, I dont even need that many ranks. It ensures I can always count on that many "virtual" ranks, even if Im distracted? Sounds like Take 10 on crack. Keep in mind that Master Skill Focus is not limited to a skill on the Skill Master's skill list, its just any skill with which you have 4 ranks.

Don't be deceived by my criticism, I think you have a solid idea, and I like it, Im just trying to point out its flaws to make it better all around. Heres some things I might try and put in such a class (unfortunately I dont have enough time to post my full take on your idea, perhaps later):

1. Skill Mastery - lifted from the rogue, this makes a perfect fit
2. Special bonuses to skills that you have Skill Focus in, encouraging Skill Masters to take that feat.
3. Something like a bardic knowledge check, accounting for all the residue knowledge they have picked up.
4. Perhaps a larger bonus when they use the "Aid Another" action. It is largely under-used, but if it had a +4/+6/+8 bonus progression it could be very powerful, perhaps too powerful at the high end.
5. Perhaps some kind of ability which allows them 1 reroll per day on any skill check, showing that they have long been practitioners of the skills they wield.

Overall good job!

Technik

 

[the_bruiser]

Originally posted by Technik4

Technik4 –

Wow, thanks for you thoughtful response. The particular player who is considering this class may begin a story hour some time soon – if so, I’ll be sure to let you know. He’s a gifted writer, though neither of us has much experience on these boards. Any tips would be appreciated, as long as it doesn’t take away from this topic.

I really appreciate your taking the time to go through this thoroughly; I wasn’t sure to expect on here and I’m impressed. I’ve taken some time to think about your comments, and I’m going to go through them point by point. (PS – Anyone else interested, please feel free to chime in as well!) I’ll include the revised class below.

Prcs rarely restrict based on ability scores, if you want to set the bar require a feat that requires that ability score - its a roundabout way of doing it, but it doesnt feel like youre penalizing someone for low int.

Good point – I think I’ll remove this – the skills required will be punishing enough for rogues (much less others) who don’t have a high enough intelligence modifier. In addition, the language requirement (per your suggestion) will also have an int-focus – characters with high int will already be close, and lower int characters will find it more difficult to know that many languages.

You didn't specify what skill focus had to be in. Perhaps Skill Focus in one of the skills required to get in the class?

I agree. That will now be the rule. To be honest, nobody in any of our campaigns (four campaigns over three years now) has ever, ever taken this feat, so I already viewed this as a “punishing” requirement, independent of the requirement itself. But your suggestion makes sense.

Now, most of the time with a heavily skill-based theme you want to require many skills as the prerequisite. You have one big skill that most people don't take (Profession (Teaching)) but the number of ranks almost implies that you have been teaching for some time. Personally I think the requirements should show someone with a skilled background something like:

Craft (Any) 8 ranks
Knowledge (Any) 8 ranks
Perform (Any) 8 ranks
Profession (Any) 8 ranks
Speak, Read, and Write in at least 5 languages

Thats a very general but strong skill requirement. To get into the prc at the earliest levels, you are maxing 4 skills that you probably dont use on a regular basis. I realize you are writing this prc for a character, so perhaps that is not the best basis for your group.

I think a good requirement would be:

Knowledge (Any) 8 ranks
Diplomacy 8 ranks
Profession (Teaching) 8 ranks
Speak, Read, and Write in at least 5 languages

I think this is sufficient in my particular campaign. The profession: teaching is basically a reflection of the character’s having demonstrated a commitment to teaching others. I like diplomacy rather than perform – it still gets across the interpersonal nature of teaching without being punitive above and beyond the prof: teaching requirement. Lastly, I love the language requirement you suggested because it captures some of the int requirement I had in the last version.

I agree with the good Will save, teachers are usually people with very capable minds. The reflex save seems reminiscent of the rogue, but this prc doesn't seem to have anything to do with quickness, speed, or reflexes. For instance, both uncanny dodge and evasion and improved evasion are nowhere to be found, and those are "reflexy" rogue basics.

I’m going to change the requirements – and the flavor text –so that the rogueishness isn’t left out. For one thing, I’m going to require 3d6 of sneak attack to prevent abuse from other classes. This is very much meant to be a continuation of the rogue class, hence the skills offered. I will add uncanny dodge, because I agree that it should count towards those levels. Regarding evasion, realistically they will already have evasion by this point and I feel that improved evasion is better reserved for “pure” rogues.

Similarly, while you think that you are cutting back on a lot of sneak attack damage, you will only be +2d6 behind by taking 10 levels of this class. Considering you have bolstered your will save considerably, as well as gained a massive number of skill benefits, that may or may not be overpowered.

I think this is fair, but I have two mitigants. First, note that in addition to giving up the +2d6 sneak attack damage, the rogue is giving up two of the advanced rogue skills – opportunist, etc. Second, I feel strongly (do you disagree?) that with these two changes the Skill Master will be a less effective combatant than a pure rogue.

Mentor is fine, one of my suggestions was going to be raising the skills per level to 10, but dividing it into an ability works too.

Note that the mentor feat does not boost the rogue’s skill points, but those of his cohort. As such, it’s as much flavor as anything else. In fact, a rogue cohort of a skill master may actually get more skill points than his master due to his master’s focus on training him! I really like this bit of flavor.

Temporarily teaching skills and feats is a neat idea, but I would try and curb abuse a little harder. A 3rd level Skill Master could teach the whole group how to use rapid (or point-blank) shot with little trouble (DC 25 is not too hard to overcome with a decent wis and Skill Focus). Alternately, he could teach everyone how to hide, or train someone else to be a Skill Master (and the new skill master could train 1 other person something they knew). It probably won't get out of hand in your group, but its something to keep in mind. Thus I think Tutor is a little too powerful.

In response to your comments, I’ve really thought about this a lot. Frankly, I’m not sure what to do. I really like this idea and don’t want to give it up entirely. Part of my feeling is based on my knowledge that my group won’t abuse it, but I know that’s not a good excuse for a general class deficiency. Further, I agree that having every party member be very good at whatever skill is most important that day has definite drawbacks. Here are my thoughts:

Regarding skills, the benefit is likely to be +2 to (rarely) +6 or even +8. I don’t think that this bonus is enough to take an otherwise unskilled person and make him super-effective at the levels at which this effect would occur (10th to 15th). As such, I don’t find this to be abusive so much as colorful.

Regarding feats, the recipient of the training must have all prerequisites for that feat. In the specific case of rapid fire (just to pick an example), that would include point blank shot and a 13 dex. As such, those people would probably already have rapid fire. Further, remember that the rogue must know a feat to teach it – with the rogue’s limited number of feats taken, I imagine that he won’t have that many feats to start with to provide the training for others – in my experience, for instance, most rogues focus on weapon finesse, ambidexterity, and two-weapon fighting for their first three levels. Adding leadership at 6th (to gain this class) leaves few feats to teach – and any who wished to learn would require a dex of 15! Most characters with a dex of 15 are already on this path.

In general, I think it’s likely that this ability would be more flavorful than powerful. I assure you, though, that I will continue to think about it. More commentary from you and from others regarding your thoughts would be invaluable. What are the worst abuses? I just don’t think it would be that bad, but part of that is being comfortable with the group for which I DM – if I say even a halfway emphatic no, then I have the luxury of knowing that they will accept that without argument (grumbling, sure, but no real problems – one of the advantages of dealing with a group in our late 20s <grin>). Maybe I could also limit it to one effect per recipient per day? I’ll go ahead and add that restriction.

Leadership bonus is cool, not very powerful, but good flavor.

I’m glad you think so – I really like this one, even though it’s pretty simple – has this mechanic been used elsewhere?

Master Skill Focus: This is a fairly good ability. For instance, lets say Im designing a ftr/rog. I decide to go straight rogue for 7 levels, grab 2 levels in this prc, then ride ftr for the next 10 or so levels. Master Skill Focus lets me get Tumble as a class skill for all my ftr levels, or any other skill I want to continue.

I’m not too concerned with this one – frankly, I’ve never seen a 9th level rogue have too much difficulty with the tumble skill (12 class points plus +2 jump skill plus, say, 20 dex = +19 check). I know that tumble was chosen as an example, but I frankly don’t have that much difficulty with, say, a 9th level rogue / 10th level fighter with 22 ranks (9+3+10) in, say, open locks, vs. 17 ranks (9+3+10/2) – I just don’t see this as much of a problem.

Transcendant Skill is even more broken. As soon as I get this I can just dump rank after rank into something, ensuring I will never ever fail a check. Like never fail one of those perform teaching checks since I have +25 bonus (only takes Skill Focus, Master Skill Focus and one level of dumping points into it. granted a lot of effort, but the payoff is pretty large).

I can see your problem here. On the other hand, you’re talking about dumping a whole level of points into one skill. From my point of view as DM, I welcome having a rogue that can, say, open locks in a truly masterful way. In my mind, if a character wishes to lower every other skill just to become very, very good at one – and even takes levels in a prestige class to do it – then I say more power to them. To my mind, I think it’s great – and if there’s ever a door (or whatever) I <really> don’t want them to pass, I can always arbitrarily make the DC higher – I don’t view this as a DM cheat; instead, I view it as the character’s ability to bypass every challenge not meant to be impossible. Frankly, a high-level rogue who dumps all his possible ranks into a skill already has a high chance of passing most checks – this just allows him to round out his rolling downside while paying an overly-high opportunity cost in all other skills.

Of course once I get calm nerves, I dont even need that many ranks. It ensures I can always count on that many "virtual" ranks, even if Im distracted? Sounds like Take 10 on crack. Keep in mind that Master Skill Focus is not limited to a skill on the Skill Master's skill list, its just any skill with which you have 4 ranks.

In a broader sense, these last two points of yours go back to something I said in my introduction. In my particular group, combat skills are the ones most valued by others in the party. In some sense, giving a character an opportunity to really excel and shine in non-combat ways really appeals to me. I want characters to be able to show to others the value of skills, even if I have to weight encounters, etc., to display those characters. I agree totally, however, that this shouldn’t just be allowed on any skill! That’s a great point. I will definitely change the requirement to include skills on the list. Thanks for pointing that out.

Don't be deceived by my criticism, I think you have a solid idea, and I like it, Im just trying to point out its flaws to make it better all around. Heres some things I might try and put in such a class (unfortunately I dont have enough time to post my full take on your idea, perhaps later):

1. Skill Mastery - lifted from the rogue, this makes a perfect fit
2. Special bonuses to skills that you have Skill Focus in, encouraging Skill Masters to take that feat.
3. Something like a bardic knowledge check, accounting for all the residue knowledge they have picked up.
4. Perhaps a larger bonus when they use the "Aid Another" action. It is largely under-used, but if it had a +4/+6/+8 bonus progression it could be very powerful, perhaps too powerful at the high end.
5. Perhaps some kind of ability which allows them 1 reroll per day on any skill check, showing that they have long been practitioners of the skills they wield.

Overall good job!

Technik

Thanks again for your attention. I hope that my comments make sense to you – I welcome any incremental ideas that you (or others!) have. Further, I welcome rebuttal to these points – in most of your points I have agreed to varying degrees – but I remain open to discussion. Again, thanks for your work.


Skill Master Prestige Class, v3

Skill Masters are true Renaissance men, intent on building their skills to higher and higher degrees. Every peculiar craft, each obscure branch of knowledge, and all skills hold an appeal for these eclectic individuals. Because they are focused on skills independent of law and order, Skill Masters tend to be non-lawful rogues more focused personal improvement and skill development.

Their love of learning new skills is matched only by their desire to share them. With a unique insight and ability to relate a new skill to one already known, they are master teachers and often are found as tutors or professors. Most also take on full time apprentices, usually rogues eager to learn their secrets.

Skills Masters often spend their earlier years as rogues, bards, and occasionally rangers. Fighters, wizards and priests rarely abandon their studies for such an unfocused life.

Hit Die: d6.

Requirements
Alignment: Any
Feats: Leadership, Skill Focus (profession:teaching, diplomacy, or knowledge), Sneak Attack 3d6
Skills: Profession (Teaching): 8 ranks, Diplomacy: 8 ranks, Knowledge (any): 8 ranks,
Other: Must speak 5 languages, Must be introduced to class by a Skill Master of 3rd level or higher.

Level AT FORT REF WILL
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Tutor, Mentor
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Master Skill Focus, Sneak Attack +1d6
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Leadership +1, Uncanny Dodge
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Master Skill Focus, Calm Nerves 8
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Transcendent Skill
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Master Skill Focus, Sneak Attack +1d6, Leadership +1
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Calm Nerves 13
8th +6 +2 +6 +6 Master Skill Focus
9th +6 +3 +6 +6 Leadership +1
10th +7 +3 +7 +7 Master Skill Focus, Sneak Attack +1d6, Calm Nerves 18

Class Features:

Skill Points at Each Level (R): 8 + Int. Modifier

Class Skills (R): Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int, exclusive skill), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Innuendo (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Intuit Direction (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge:Any (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Pick Pocket (Dex), Profession (Wis), Read Lips (Int, exclusive skill), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha, exclusive skill), and Use Rope (Dex).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency (R): Weapon training focuses on weapons suitable for stealth and sneak attacks. Thus, all Skill Masters are proficient with the crossbow (hand or light), dagger (any type), dart, light mace, sap, shortbow (normal and composite), and short sword. Medium-size Skill Masters are also proficient with certain weapons that are too big for Small characters to use and conceal easily: club, heavy crossbow, heavy mace, morningstar, quarterstaff, and rapier. Skill Masters are proficient with light armor but not with shields.

Sneak Attack (R): Any time the character's target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the character flanks the target, the character's attack deals extra damage. Should the character score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can only count as sneak attacks if the target is within 30 feet. The character can't strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

Uncanny Dodge (R): At 3rd level and above, she retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.

Tutor (T): Once per day per class level, the character can train someone in how to perform a particular feat or skill. To teach a skill, the character makes a Profession: Teaching check, and the recipient gains a temporary number of ranks in that skill equal to rounddown((check-10)/5,0). Neither the number of temporary ranks granted nor the total effective ranks held by the recipient can exceed the number of ranks held by the teacher. To teach a feat, the activity is DC25, the teacher must have the feat, and the student must meet all criteria to gain the feat. In either case, the effective temporary ranks or temporary feats gained last for 12 hours. No person can be tutored more than once per day.

Mentor (T): The cohort of a Skill Master gains an extra skill point per level.

Leadership (T): The Skill Master’s reputation for teaching and nurturing becomes more widely known. At each of the indicated levels, increase the Skill Master’s leadership score by one for purposes of determining number of followers. These bonuses are cumulative and permanent.

Master Skill Focus (L): Skill Masters can take Master Skill Focus in a class skill in which they have four or more ranks. The skills gain a +2 masterful competence bonus and will thereafter be considered a class skill for the character regardless of what future classes are taken by the Skill Master. This bonus stacks with the Skill Focus feat.

Transcendent Skill (L): The Skill Master is not limited in the number of ranks he can apply toward skills for which he has Master Skill Focus.

Calm Nerves (L): The Skill Master may take the indicated result rather than rolling a d20 when making skill checks in skills for which he has Master Skill Focus.

 

[Mista Collins]

I really like the idea of this class, but I see one thing I have a problem with. This PrC is strictly for a rogue. I understand that you are creating it based on one of your characters.

Why not open it up to another class? Possibly Wizard? The reasoning I have behind this is that I see a wizard as a tutor and mentor also. Most Wizards are already maxed in some knowledge skills, so why not open it up to wizards.

In order to do this you would have to change some of the requirements.

1. You would have to get rid of the sneak attack requirements
2. You would have to change the required ranks in diplomacy to 4

These changes won't affect the level in which a rogue can choose this PrC, so I wouldn't see the problem in these changes.

If you still want to keep this PrC based on rogue's I would suggest on changing the name of it to something other than Skill Master. Maybe something like Teacher of the Night or something similar to that.

I still think some of this is over powered. The tutor part being the main thing. And on top of that, the Transcendent skill. Say I have a skill bonus of +25 on my teaching skill, I would then technically role my d20 (say getting a 13) and would make a skill check of 38. This is enough to teach a feat and give a character a +28 bonus on his skills. I know the skill bonus is maxed by the Skill Masters ranks, but if it is for skills like jump, balance, pick pocket, open lock, tumble these are gonna be high as it is. And if you throw the Calm Nerves ontop of that I could be getting an 18 on my d20 every single time and thus giving someone an even bigger bonus.

Another question I have. How long does it take to use the tutor skill? I know it last 24 hours, but how long does it take to teach a fighter how to open locks? How long does it take to teach a barbarian to Disable Device (not his normal smashing techinque).

I do really like the leadership bonus also. This type of thing is used in the Warmaster PrC found in Sowrd & Fist.

Overall I do like the idea of the PrC.

 

[the_bruiser]

Originally posted by Mista Collins (edited for length)
Why not open it up to another class? Possibly Wizard?

In order to do this you would have to change some of the requirements.

1. You would have to get rid of the sneak attack requirements
2. You would have to change the required ranks in diplomacy to 4

I still think some of this is over powered. The tutor part being the main thing. And on top of that, the Transcendent skill. Say I have a skill bonus of +25 on my teaching skill, I would then technically role my d20 (say getting a 13) and would make a skill check of 38. This is enough to teach a feat and give a character a +28 bonus on his skills. I know the skill bonus is maxed by the Skill Masters ranks, but if it is for skills like jump, balance, pick pocket, open lock, tumble these are gonna be high as it is. And if you throw the Calm Nerves ontop of that I could be getting an 18 on my d20 every single time and thus giving someone an even bigger bonus.

Overall I do like the idea of the PrC.

Great to hear from you, Mista. Glad you like the idea. I'm wondering about your idea regarding opening it up to other classes and I'm not sure. Let's talk about your example, the wizard - first of all, I'm pretty sure that it would be a bad idea for a wizard to take this class. Second of all, I atually prefer that the diplomacy requirement (kind of) limits the class to those who are from a background that encourages mature interpersonal interaction - as opposed to, say, a Wizard, whose career path does not necessarily encourage this (hence the requirement to use cross-class points). I'd definitely consider dropping the sneak attack, but my initial thought is that I *want* the class to be rogue-y.

On a side note, not to hijack my own thread, I'm curious what you guys think about this. We are using a house rule where every character is able to select a "natural" skill in which he shows personal inclination, and that skill counts as a class skill for any class taken by that character. So, in my campaign, even a wizard could meet the diplomacy need if he declared that to be his natural skill. So, we have a fighter who used to be a bodyguard that has a great spot check, a Ranger/Shugenja (yeah, I know <g>) that grew up between two cultures and learned to be extremely diplomatic, and a Ranger/Cleric who grew up in the wild and has great handle animal ability. It's just one skill, so for me it's a great flavor/customizer without adding undue power.

One important point - your reading of Tutor is *not* in line with my intent - now that I think about it, Technik might have been off as well. I may need to make the definition more clear. It would *not* be a +28 bonus, it would only be a +5 bonus - the definition is take the excess roll (13+25-10=28), divide by five (28/5=5.6), and round down to get +5. So it's *way*, *way* less effective than you might have thought it to be, and transcendent skill / calm nerves are far less abusive as a combo.

Last point - I'll change the text - Tutor takes one hour per attempt.

Anyway, thanks for your comments - hope this helps.

 

[the_bruiser]

double post

 

[Technik4]

I dig the changes. As mista said, I think the class needs to be opened up a little, as it stands it is quite difficult for rangers and bards to get in, despite the fact that in 3.5 they get quite a few skill points (6/level).

Diplomacy makes for a better fit, as you said. Most great mentors or teachers were not usually in the best place politically, so they definitely needed to be diplomatic.

I liked the Craft and Profession requirements merely because they simulated someone skilled in a trade or a guild. This gives more credence to them being teachers, as they were probably taught something, in addition to teaching themselves things. I still think profession (teaching) is sort of clunky. If you want an all-around skill master, even one that is good at taking on students, you can't expect them to have been taking profession (teaching) since level 1 (and they would pretty much need to have been, to qualify with the other things). I would say keep the knowledge (any) and diplomacy at 8 ranks, but reduce the profession (teaching) to 4 ranks. I'm glad you liked the language focus, another good way would be to make it 2 knowledge skills instead of 1.

While the sneak attack does make it more "roguey", it works at a counter to letting others in easily. If you are dead set on making a class ability a requirement evasion works much better from a mechanics point of view. It allows less mutliclassing to reach the desired result, plus high level 3.5 rangers and of course monks also get evasion. It still forces the bard to multiclass, but I think thats a wash (the prc isnt intended for spellcasters much anyway).

At this point Im starting to feel like it should only be a 5 level class. There are a few reasons for this, but namely that it seems less a "career" and more of a side-trek for anyone, even a rogue. Below is my take on your idea.


A Skill Master is a cunning craft adversary. She is skilled in many different things, and can often train people quickly to overcome obstacles in a pinch. Skill Masters are surprisingly adept at combat, and they often have many tales of war and battle under their belts. A Skill Master is a potent adversary, and one may never know what to expect. Rogues, Rangers, and Bards most often become skill masters, although some less driven wizards have also taken the path.


Hit Die: d6.

Requirements

Feats: Leadership, Skill Focus (Profession (Teaching), Diplomacy, or Knowledge (Any))
Skills: Profession (Teaching) 4 ranks, Diplomacy 8 ranks, Knowledge (any) 8 ranks
Abilities: Evasion
Other: Must speak 5 languages, Must be introduced to class by another Skill Master.

Level AT FORT REF WILL
1st +1 +0 +2 +2 Master Focus, Mentor
2nd +2 +0 +3 +3 Tutor, Uncanny Dodge
3rd +3 +1 +3 +3 Master Focus, Renown Teacher
4th +4 +1 +4 +4
5th +5 +1 +4 +4 Skill Mastery

[Changed BAB to Good. Dropped Sneak Attack completely. Kept Master focus, but dropped transcendant skill. Changed Calm Nerves to Skill Mastery.]


Class Features:

Skill Points at Each Level : 8 + Int. Modifier

Class Skills
Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int, exclusive skill), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Innuendo (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Intuit Direction (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge:Any (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Pick Pocket (Dex), Profession (Wis), Read Lips (Int, exclusive skill), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha, exclusive skill), and Use Rope (Dex).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency : A skill master does not gain proficiency in either weapons or armor.

[My first change. There is no need to give a non-rogue (which is now possible) any extra proficiencies. Most prcs are written this way these days.]

Maintained Abilities: A Skill Master's level is added to a bard's to determine Bardic Knowledge. A Skill Master's level is also added to a wizard's to determine Familiar abilities.

Master Focus: Skill Masters can take Master Focus in a skill in which they have four or more ranks. The skills gain a +2 masterful bonus and will thereafter be considered a class skill for the character regardless of what future classes are taken by the Skill Master. A Skill Master who tutors a skill which they have Master Focus in grants an additional 2 ranks to the recepient.

[No change really, made it so that as long as they have 4 ranks they can Master it and a small bonus to tutoring a Master Focused skill.]

Mentor : The cohort of a Skill Master gains an extra skill point per level.

Tutor: Once per day per class level, the character can train someone in how to perform a particular feat or skill. To teach a skill, the Skill Master makes a Profession (Teaching) check DC 20, and the recipient gains a temporary number of ranks in that skill equal to the Skill Master's level. The total effective ranks held by the recipient can not exceed the number of ranks held by the teacher. To teach a feat, the Skill Master makes a Profession (Teaching) check DC 25, and the recepient gains any feat the skill master possesses. The recepient must make an Intelligence check DC 10 or else they cannot be taught that day. For each point they roll above ten the tutoring lasts an additional hour (minimum 1 hour). If a character has been tutored at least 3 times for the same skill or feat, a the recepient gets a +2 competence bonus to the Intelligence check.

[Some changes here. Since the formula seemed tricky and could possibly be exploited by dumping points into Profession (Teaching) I refined the bonus to that of the Skill Master herself. I also added the intelligence check so the smarter the person you teach, the longer it sticks. I think it makes sense. I didn't put the part about having the requisite for the skill, after-all the recepient will only have access to the feat for a few hours.]

Uncanny Dodge: At 2nd level and above, she retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. Any Skill Master levels count as rogue levels when calculating total Uncanny Dodge bonuses.

[Kept this, it is one of the ties to the roguey aspect.]

Renown Teacher : The Skill Master’s reputation for teaching and nurturing becomes more widely known. The skill master always has a bonus to her Leadership score equal to her level of Skill Master.

[Renamed Leadership bonus to Renown teacher. I also tied this to the Skill Master's level, although it is a little feeble since you don't get it until 3rd level.]

Skill Mastery: A Skill Master may choose a number of skills equal to her Int bonus. All of her Master Focused skills in addition to the picked skills can be used by the Skill Master "Taking 10", even under stressfull conditions.

[I think this works better than calm nerves, especially since it is an existing mechanic. Tying it back to the Master Foci brings the class together nicely.]

Overall Im pleased with this 5-level version. I don't regret losing sneak attack, though the high BAB feels out of place. I think compared to rogue levels this version is very cool without losing much power, except direct combat power.

Technik

 

[Mista Collins]

After thinking about it at work today (I get to sit on my butt and run projectors at a local movie theater). I agree the diplomacy is a good decision.

I like the 5 level version too. I like how the Leadership bonu was renamed to Renown Teacher. It kind of gives the PrC more of a feeling of a teacher if you know what I mean. I actually agree that this really wouldn't help a wizard much. The only thing that would benefit a wizard I think would be the better BAB and better Reflex Save. I like the fact that the sneak attack requirement was taken out and Evasion was added. This would allow Monks to take this class also and I always picture Monks as wise teachers anyway.

Would it be better to change the skill points to 10 +Int. Mod? This would represent the characters focus in skills. This PrC is called Skill Master and if you really wanted to offset the increase in skill points per level, you could lower the BAB down to the next lowest notch.

Overall I think this is a great prestige class and I would be really interested in taking it (I mainly play rogues). In fact, if my DM allows it, I will take it because I don't care about backstab and such, I want mroe skill points . Plus the leadership bonus would be nice for the smuggling ring I am in the process of creating.

I give this PrC the "Mista Collins Approval"

 

[the_bruiser]

Skill Master v4 - Final?

Thanks again for your help. For our campaign I'm going to leave it as a 10 level class - we view this as a whole new lifestyle, if you know what I mean.

Here's what I'm thinking now, as this gets pretty close to a final version. I've used a few of your ideas, especially with tutor. I left the sneak attack in and the medium attack progression - I'm not sure where that idea of yours came from, Technik .

Regarding your 10 sp/l idea, Mista, I think I'm going to stay with 8 - remember, he is getting a free +2 feat every two levels and the skill mastery feat, so I think those together are much better than an additional 2 points per level, so in my mind the title Skill Master is still merited.


Skill Master Prestige Class, v4

Skill Masters are true Renaissance men, intent on building their skills to higher and higher degrees. Every peculiar craft, each obscure branch of knowledge, and all skills hold an appeal for these eclectic individuals. Their love of learning new skills is matched only by their desire to share them. With a unique insight and ability to relate a new skill to one already known, they are master teachers and often are found as tutors or professors. Most also take on full time apprentices, usually rogues eager to learn their secrets.

Skills Masters often spend their earlier years as rogues, bards, and occasionally rangers. Fighters, wizards and priests rarely abandon their studies for such an unfocused life.

Hit Die: d6.

Requirements
Alignment: Any
Feats: Leadership, Skill Focus (profession:teaching, diplomacy, or knowledge)
Skills: Profession (Teaching): 4 ranks, Diplomacy: 8 ranks, Knowledge (any): 8 ranks
Other: Evasion, Must speak 5 languages, Must be introduced to class by a Skill Master

Level AT FORT REF WILL
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Tutor, Mentor
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Master Skill Focus, Sneak Attack +1d6
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Renown Teacher +1, Uncanny Dodge
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Master Skill Focus
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Skill Mastery
6th +4 +2 +5 +5 Master Skill Focus, Sneak Attack +1d6
7th +5 +2 +5 +5 Renown Teacher +1
8th +6 +2 +6 +6 Master Skill Focus
9th +6 +3 +6 +6 Renown Teacher +1
10th +7 +3 +7 +7 Master Skill Focus, Sneak Attack +1d6, Skill Mastery

Class Features:

Skill Points at Each Level (R): 8 + Int. Modifier

Class Skills (R): Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int, exclusive skill), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Innuendo (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Intuit Direction (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge:Any (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Pick Pocket (Dex), Profession (Wis), Read Lips (Int, exclusive skill), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha, exclusive skill), and Use Rope (Dex).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency (R): A skill master does not gain proficiency in either weapons or armor.

Sneak Attack (R): Any time the character's target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the character flanks the target, the character's attack deals extra damage. Should the character score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can only count as sneak attacks if the target is within 30 feet. The character can't strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

Uncanny Dodge (R): At 3rd level and above, she retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. Any Skill Master levels count as rogue levels when calculating total Uncanny Dodge bonuses.

Tutor (T): Once per day per class level, the character can train someone in how to perform a particular feat or skill. To teach a skill, the Skill Master makes a Profession: Teaching check DC 20 and the recipient must make an Int check DC 10. If both pass, the recipient gains a number of temporary ranks equal to the Skill Master’s class level or equal to the number of ranks held by the Skill Master, whichever is lower. The attempt takes one hour and the effect lasts a number of hours equal to the Skill Master’s class level. No person can be tutored more than once per day.

Mentor (T): The cohort of a Skill Master gains an extra skill point per level.

Renown Teacher (T): The Skill Master’s reputation for teaching and nurturing becomes more widely known. The skill master always has a bonus to her Leadership score equal to her level of Skill Master.

Master Skill Focus (L): Skill Masters can take Master Skill Focus in a class skill in which they have four or more ranks. The skills gain a +2 masterful competence bonus and will thereafter be considered a class skill for the character regardless of what future classes are taken by the Skill Master. This bonus stacks with the Skill Focus feat.

Skill Mastery (L): The rogue selects a number of skills equal to 3 + Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, the rogue may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent the rogue from doing so. The rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.

 

[Technik4]

Looking good. Nothing wrong with a 10-level prc, it just seemed more like the archmage of rogues, if you catch my meaning. I would say the only thing missing is Renown master +1 at 5th level to smooth out the progression.

I don't know what I was thinking exactly either. I just thought it may be more appealing for everyone involved if it was divorced from sneak attack entirely. Seeing as you kept it, I wonder if a high level tutor ability may be in order (as a finishing touch) "Tutor Sneak Attack". Against a DC 30 you can teach someone to use Sneak attack in battle. The bonus would only last for a short time, and the amount of sneak attack they get should be based on the skill master's total and their own intelligence roll (with restrictions of course). It would really bring that aspect into the prc better.

Good Gaming!

Technik