D&D 5E Skyrim supplement for D&D 5e

[Ovinomancer]

Bethesda has a rather odd relationship with their fanbase, where they actively steal ideas (sometimes copyrighted ideas) from their fans and ignore the little copyright infringements they suffer in return. This goes as far as letting a fan recreate Oblivion as a Skyrim mod. They reacted the same way to recreating the game Morrowind as a Skyrim mod.

For the most part, I think Bethesda would just write this infringement off as the cost of their business model. If they do decide to do anything about it, my money would be on them contracting to have an official product made that is much higher quality.

Would their relationship with their fanbase change the way copyright infringement applies?

Nope. Copyright does not require you to defend it. 1000 people can infringe and the can still pick you for the same thing and have the full curve of law begins them.

People confuse copyright with trademark, which does have to be vigorously defended. Copyright just is, and doesn't depend on past enforcement decisions by ther rights holder.

Bethesda's allowance ou'd mods for their ganes is actually somewhat coveted by their release of the design kits. Try making a nod for a different game that recreates a Bethesda one and see how far you get.

 

[robus]

I now remember why I bailed out of this thread.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Bethesda has a rather odd relationship with their fanbase, where they actively steal ideas (sometimes copyrighted ideas) from their fans and ignore the little copyright infringements they suffer in return. This goes as far as letting a fan recreate Oblivion as a Skyrim mod. They reacted the same way to recreating the game Morrowind as a Skyrim mod.

For the most part, I think Bethesda would just write this infringement off as the cost of their business model. If they do decide to do anything about it, my money would be on them contracting to have an official product made that is much higher quality.

Would their relationship with their fanbase change the way copyright infringement applies?

You're wrong in your assumption and accusation. I suggest reading the ToS I linked to earlier.

 

[ArchfiendBobbie]

You're wrong in your assumption and accusation. I suggest reading the ToS I linked to earlier.

Skyrim in Unreal Engine 4

Skyrim in Minecraft

The primary mod site for Skyrim and Fallout

Legend of Zelda in Skyrim, using the old format

Oblivion settlement building mod Fallout 4, which features the same gameplay element, was released four years later.

Can we get back to ignoring the ToS that even Bethesda has loophole abused to the point it's laughable? I got my answer on copyright, and it was a very good point.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Skyrim in Unreal Engine 4

Skyrim in Minecraft

The primary mod site for Skyrim and Fallout

Legend of Zelda in Skyrim, using the old format

Oblivion settlement building mod Fallout 4, which features the same gameplay element, was released four years later.

Can we get back to ignoring the ToS that even Bethesda has loophole abused to the point it's laughable? I got my answer on copyright, and it was a very good point.

Thinking that TOS is laughable is a mistake -- it's not. Further, your examples are bad.

The first may get a pass under fair use because it's a limited release of non-core IP after a transformative process. Since the display focuses on the transformation rather than the IP, this may squeak in under fair use.

The second is a licensed product. That kinda completely disarmed discussion about IP violation when you're directly licensed to distribute the IP. Also, it's a cool pack.

The third -- Nexus exists because of the creation kit TOS. They exist because the TOS allows that service to exist. Since mods are allowed, a site hosting mods is allowed so long as they promptly respond to DMCA requests per the law. And they do -- they do mod take downs for violations fairly often. Most fix what's wrong and come back.

The fourth is Nintendo's problem, not Bethesda's. Until Nintendo issues a takedown request it's not the hosting company's responsibility to enforce Nintendo's copyrights.

The last is, again, covered by the TOS, because it uses allowed Bethesda content for a Bethesda game.

But, again, to circle back to the point: 1000 people can do it before you and you can still be stopped for speeding. Same with IP violations. Do not convince yourself otherwise.

 

[ArchfiendBobbie]

Thinking that TOS is laughable is a mistake -- it's not. Further, your examples are bad.

The first may get a pass under fair use because it's a limited release of non-core IP after a transformative process. Since the display focuses on the transformation rather than the IP, this may squeak in under fair use.

The second is a licensed product. That kinda completely disarmed discussion about IP violation when you're directly licensed to distribute the IP. Also, it's a cool pack.

The third -- Nexus exists because of the creation kit TOS. They exist because the TOS allows that service to exist. Since mods are allowed, a site hosting mods is allowed so long as they promptly respond to DMCA requests per the law. And they do -- they do mod take downs for violations fairly often. Most fix what's wrong and come back.

The fourth is Nintendo's problem, not Bethesda's. Until Nintendo issues a takedown request it's not the hosting company's responsibility to enforce Nintendo's copyrights.

The last is, again, covered by the TOS, because it uses allowed Bethesda content for a Bethesda game.

But, again, to circle back to the point: 1000 people can do it before you and you can still be stopped for speeding. Same with IP violations. Do not convince yourself otherwise.

I'll come back to the ToS being laughable. First, I want to address the others.

The first you're right on. But it goes into the issue of if Bethesda even cares.

The second is not a licensed product. You're thinking of Minecraft: Skyrim Edition. The fact it's not a licensed product is addressed by the fact that adding shout sounds from Skyrim was outright stated to get the mod removed for copyright violation.

The third is important to the statement the ToS is laughable. The ToS on game mods speaks of mods that are distributed through a ZenaMax-owned site, and Nexusmods isn't owned by ZenaMax. Bethesda's ToS is completely irrelevant to anything posted on that site.

The fourth is to show another weakness of the ToS. It requires ZenaMax to take action against copyright violations of other companies. Yet because their ToS only covers their own distribution methods as far as actions they can take. But there is no ZenaMax mod distribution method for many Bethesda games, including the Elder Scrolls and Fallout franchises. Basically, absolutely nothing in the game mods section of their ToS actually applies to any game mod for most Elder Scrolls or Fallout games. They loophole abused themselves out of having to do anything about those mods, and the mods that are removed are removed under the ToS of Nexusmods.

The fourth is to show an example that Bethesda does take ideas from mods. Which, from what I understand, is something most mod creators are perfectly okay with.

The only aspects of their ToS that actually apply to anything the average person does is if someone hacks the Creation Club (which is a Fallout-only item), distributes the game illegally (covered under piracy laws), or Bethesda themselves does something that gets them sued and people lose access to a piece of content as a result. Because they specifically make it a point not to have the distribution methods that would allow people to distribute most mods through them, thus making it nearly impossible to violate or enforce. And if you read the ToS, you can see that the limit on it being a ZenaMax-owned distribution service even applies to things that are not game mods, outside of legal moves to protect their IP. That's why the ToS is laughable.

But as far as copyright violations? I have no argument.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I'll come back to the ToS being laughable. First, I want to address the others.

The first you're right on. But it goes into the issue of if Bethesda even cares.

The second is not a licensed product. You're thinking of Minecraft: Skyrim Edition. The fact it's not a licensed product is addressed by the fact that adding shout sounds from Skyrim was outright stated to get the mod removed for copyright violation.

The third is important to the statement the ToS is laughable. The ToS on game mods speaks of mods that are distributed through a ZenaMax-owned site, and Nexusmods isn't owned by ZenaMax. Bethesda's ToS is completely irrelevant to anything posted on that site.

The fourth is to show another weakness of the ToS. It requires ZenaMax to take action against copyright violations of other companies. Yet because their ToS only covers their own distribution methods as far as actions they can take. But there is no ZenaMax mod distribution method for many Bethesda games, including the Elder Scrolls and Fallout franchises. Basically, absolutely nothing in the game mods section of their ToS actually applies to any game mod for most Elder Scrolls or Fallout games. They loophole abused themselves out of having to do anything about those mods, and the mods that are removed are removed under the ToS of Nexusmods.

The fourth is to show an example that Bethesda does take ideas from mods. Which, from what I understand, is something most mod creators are perfectly okay with.

The only aspects of their ToS that actually apply to anything the average person does is if someone hacks the Creation Club (which is a Fallout-only item), distributes the game illegally (covered under piracy laws), or Bethesda themselves does something that gets them sued and people lose access to a piece of content as a result. Because they specifically make it a point not to have the distribution methods that would allow people to distribute most mods through them, thus making it nearly impossible to violate or enforce. And if you read the ToS, you can see that the limit on it being a ZenaMax-owned distribution service even applies to things that are not game mods, outside of legal moves to protect their IP. That's why the ToS is laughable.

But as far as copyright violations? I have no argument.

Sure, well, and good. You speed if you want to. If you get pulled over and find out that the TOS actually does have teeth, don't complain; you were warned.

 

[ArchfiendBobbie]

Sure, well, and good. You speed if you want to. If you get pulled over and find out that the TOS actually does have teeth, don't complain; you were warned.

Eh. All of this argument goes back to me making the statement Bethesda doesn't care for the most part and likely won't do anything about this product. Except maybe decide they like the idea and get an official product of high quality made. All to ask a question about if copyright infringement still applies as normal given the different situation.

Far different from saying to do it or that I'll do it.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Eh. All of this argument goes back to me making the statement Bethesda doesn't care for the most part and likely won't do anything about this product. Except maybe decide they like the idea and get an official product of high quality made. All to ask a question about if copyright infringement still applies as normal given the different situation.

Far different from saying to do it or that I'll do it.

And millions of people speed every day and don't get caught. Violating agreed to contracts has a nasty habit of still being a problem for you if the company ever decides to do anything about it. See the Axanar saga for Star Trek. Assuming it's okay because you just saw a bunch of people speed past without getting tagged, or that the cops usually let this stuff go is a great way to find out how expensive litigation can be. You can run risks if you want to, but be honest about the actual risks, don't minimize them with arguments like this.

 

[ArchfiendBobbie]

And millions of people speed every day and don't get caught. Violating agreed to contracts has a nasty habit of still being a problem for you if the company ever decides to do anything about it. See the Axanar saga for Star Trek. Assuming it's okay because you just saw a bunch of people speed past without getting tagged, or that the cops usually let this stuff go is a great way to find out how expensive litigation can be. You can run risks if you want to, but be honest about the actual risks, don't minimize them with arguments like this.

Most ToS's are not legally enforceable within the United States. Same with most EULAs. That's why they include the part about refusal of service; they can just refuse service to you any further if you repeatedly cause a problem.

However, let's dig into this... grabbing relevant sections.

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This just provides a definition of Services for later on. It's relevant so some of the parts coming up make some sense.

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The document on the first page does not violate that. Next section.

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Well... Under this section, if you read it right, then ZeniMax possibly owns the Skyrim supplement. Interesting. And if you read it another way, ZeniMax cannot take action against this product since it was not actually submitted to them or through one of their distribution methods. And a third way is that both are true, making this potentially ZeniMax property that ZeniMax can't touch. But they certainly are not liable for anything that happens with it.

Basically, the item on the first page needs to change their last page to have a proper copyright notice for Skyrim.

But at no point does the ToS actually come into play if this is not a copyright violation, just due to the fact it hamstrings itself on what it can enforce by limiting itself entirely to content submitted to ZeniMax or distributed through them or something they own. No mod is distributed in that manner, the Minecraft mods are not distributed in that manner, the very document in the first post is not distributed in that manner... In no case can there be a violation of the ToS cited simply because the ToS does not apply to this situation.

Now, whether or not it violates Skyrim's copyright is another matter. There's a good argument there. And a very good reason not to take risks like the OP does in the first place. Because he's risking massive monetary damages and jail time, not having his document taken down from some distribution service ZeniMax runs.