D&D 5E Skyrim supplement for D&D 5e

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Ah, so kobold boots got in his last words and then blocked me.

Please, no one take his advice on IP usage -- his advice puts you in legal jeopardy.
 

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robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
I think there can be a general stepping back from the pearl clutching to be honest. Is the OP the first to do some unofficial mash up of a popular world/environment as an RPG? Absolutely not. Have any of the others been sued into oblivion? Also no. Is it 100% OK what they’re doing? No. Is it 100% not OK? Unknown given the grey area that fair use introduces (as I noted earlier)... is it likely that Bethesda will even care? Most likely no, it would be like swatting a gnat with a sledgehammer. The worst to happen would be the OP would be asked to take it down. Oh noes!

So let’s all try and relax a bit eh? We’re pretending to be elves after all...
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
@Mistwell, @Sacrosanct and @Ovinomancer
1. Our group has an Obsidian Portal site for our campaigns, from time to time I as DM dress it up with pretty pics from the net, while the players poach pics for their characters.
2. Furthermore I might take entire excerpts from modules or campaign settings from WotC/TSR material and include them for reading purposes for our play group.
3. Lastly, our Obsidian Portal page is marked as public.

Where are we falling afoul or at risk?
I'm merely asking because I imagine hundreds of other groups out there are doing the same - wouldn't something like Obsidian Portal be at risk with all these copyright infringements?

Running afoul and risk are two different things. By the law, using someone else's IP without their permission is a violation of copyright, regardless of how you use it. However, when people use things for personal use, most people really don't care (or even know about it). But the point myself and Ovinomancer are trying to make is that even if the IP holder doesn't do anything, doesn't mean you're still not in violation and opening yourself up to problems. If you take something I have IP ownership of and use it in your own private games or whatever, I really don't care. If you use something I have IP ownership of and put out something for distribution without permission, then I very much do care. I paid for the right to use these things, and/or I spent the time to create them myself. You do not have the right to use them for free to try to "sell" your project.

And that's what it comes down to. The right. Just because one person might be OK with you using something, and another isn't, the fact remains is that it's their choice to make that decision, and people should never assume they can do it anyway because they haven't gotten busted yet. Disney sued a daycare to remove images of their IP that were painted on the wall, so just because someone hasn't been sued yet, doesn't change the fact that they are still legally in the wrong and are at risk.

As always, people should consult a lawyer before assuming it's OK to use another's IP or to assume it falls under fair use.

Ah, so kobold boots got in his last words and then blocked me.

Please, no one take his advice on IP usage -- his advice puts you in legal jeopardy.

Indeed. He is flat out wrong, and anyone listening to him is putting themselves at risk.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
I think there can be a general stepping back from the pearl clutching to be honest. Is the OP the first to do some unofficial mash up of a popular world/environment as an RPG? Absolutely not. Have any of the others been sued into oblivion? Also no. Is it 100% OK what they’re doing? No. Is it 100% not OK? Unknown given the grey area that fair use introduces (as I noted earlier)... is it likely that Bethesda will even care? Most likely no, it would be like swatting a gnat with a sledgehammer. The worst to happen would be the OP would be asked to take it down. Oh noes!

So let’s all try and relax a bit eh? We’re pretending to be elves after all...

You are incorrect on two things in your assumptions. It is 100% not OK, as defined what copyright law is. It's not just the text, but the images he is using belong to them. Those images aren't derivative work, they are the original images. His product is not satire or a review, but an entirely new product. He is using their images without permission, so it is in fact 100% in the wrong. Whether or not Bethesda cares and will do anything is a different matter. But technically, it's a violation. The DMs Guild refused to host because it's a clear violation. There is no gray area here.

The second thing you're wrong about is that the "worst to happen would be the OP would be asked to take it down." No, the worst to happen is the OP gets sued. And before you say it never happens, see my post above where Disney sued a daycare
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
@Mistwell, @Sacrosanct and @Ovinomancer
1. Our group has an Obsidian Portal site for our campaigns, from time to time I as DM dress it up with pretty pics from the net, while the players poach pics for their characters.
2. Furthermore I might take entire excerpts from modules or campaign settings from WotC/TSR material and include them for reading purposes for our play group.
3. Lastly, our Obsidian Portal page is marked as public.

Where are we falling afoul or at risk?
I'm merely asking because I imagine hundreds of other groups out there are doing the same - wouldn't something like Obsidian Portal be at risk with all these copyright infringements?


1. Yes, this puts in danger of copyright infringement.

2. This may put you in danger of copyright infringement. The usage for your game is part of what you purchased, so providing the text to your players isn't an issue. However, the having your campaign where you provide that information be open to anyone may -- may -- put you in jeopardy. I would ask a lawyer for specific advice.

3. This is the most likely point where you may be discovered as in violation. If you do not open your portal, then the module/supplement usage becomes a non-issue and even the image usage reduces impact. You can still be hit for the image usage, though, especially if the rights holder is selling access to the image.

For Obsidian Portal's jeopardy, nope, none of your violations puts them at risk at all. Unless it can be shown that Obsidian Portal is willfully aiding copyright abuse, they're shielded from having to take any action whatsoever by law. This is the same law that says your ISP can't be sued because you (hypothetical you) are issuing death threats on the internet -- platform providers are not liable for what contributors post so long as the posting is generally open and not curated. Morrus is protected from being liable for your bad behavior on his site by this law, although since he has a moderation policy, if he's alerted to your behavior and chooses to do nothing about it he might have some risk, but so far the courts have been reluctant to even go that far against a platform provider.

That changes for Obsidian Portal if they are legally notified about your infringement. This is what usually happens in the case of anonymous internet infringement - the hosting site is issued a DMCA demand to remove the infringing material. At that point, it really depends on what Obsidian Portal's policies are -- your account may be suspended and you are notified as to the reasons why, at which point you may be able to take steps to remove the offending material and have your account reinstated; or Obsidian Portal may just delete your account and be done with it. Both (or some other option) are viable methods of dealing with it. If I were you, I'd carefully read the terms of service for Obsidian Portal and find out what policy they have in place for such things. A quick google shows their policy is in Section 5 of their ToS. I can't read it from here (it's blocked), but that's where you should go to understand what risks you're running.

As for damages, if you are found to be in violation, their likely to be minor. There's little to a few images used for personal use that will trigger punitive damages, and compensatory damages will be limited to the actual monetary damages that can be proven -- likely just the cost of the image x number of truly separate uses and maybe x the number of people that also accessed it from you. That can be costly, as some images cost many hundreds of dollars, but it's cheaper than it could be.

What people in this hobby really need to understand is that your intentions really don't matter, that everyone does it really doesn't matter, and that the system is less good at finding a just outcome than it is at extracting money from everyone involved. You take risks using copyrighted material you don't have rights to - small ones, but potentially expensive ones. If the rights holder stops at a DMCA takedown request, you are lucky -- comply and mvoe on. If they press things, it's going to get expensive for you. Even if you eventually win, the costs of the litigation against you can be ruinous. Now, granted, you probably aren't going to be sued for using some images on your Obsidian Portal page, but you should still be careful. Take the example of the predatory practices of Getty Images, for instance. Please pay attention to the caveat at the end, though. Just because the group coming after you is usually full of bullpoop, it doesn't mean you're not going to be the exception.
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
You are incorrect on two things in your assumptions. It is 100% not OK, as defined what copyright law is. It's not just the text, but the images he is using belong to them. Those images aren't derivative work, they are the original images. His product is not satire or a review, but an entirely new product. He is using their images without permission, so it is in fact 100% in the wrong. Whether or not Bethesda cares and will do anything is a different matter. But technically, it's a violation. The DMs Guild refused to host because it's a clear violation. There is no gray area here.

So you’re continuing to ignore my larger point in that this kind of thing is done all the time?

The second thing you're wrong about is that the "worst to happen would be the OP would be asked to take it down." No, the worst to happen is the OP gets sued. And before you say it never happens, see my post above where Disney sued a daycare

A daycare is a business. Making money off of other people’s IP absolutely crosses the line. Not sure as to relevance?
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
I’m not going to continue debating this. Yes the OP was foolish to try and post it to DMs Guild. But is the OP risking a great deal by sharing his mash-up? I don’t think so.

And as I have no idea what Skyrim is even about (being an old fart)... I’m out of this thread :)
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
So you’re continuing to ignore my larger point in that this kind of thing is done all the time?

Not only have I not ignored it, I've explicitly pointed out how it doesn't matter how often it's been done, and that has no bearing on whether or not something is a copyright infringement.

A daycare is a business. Making money off of other people’s IP absolutely crosses the line. Not sure as to relevance?

Whether or not someone makes money has no bearing on whether or not something is copyright infringement.

I feel like I'm repeating myself.
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
Whether or not someone makes money has no bearing on whether or not something is copyright infringement.

I feel like I'm repeating myself.

Yep - we're definitely talking at cross purposes. No worries. I'm sure there are more fun threads to hang out in - see you around :)
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
So you’re continuing to ignore my larger point in that this kind of thing is done all the time?

To jump in with a relevant comparison: so is speeding on the highway. Is the fact that everyone does it going to deter the officer from writing your ticket?

Same thing. Everyone doing it doesn't mean that when you get pulled up on a IP infringement it's going to go away. It's not. What everyone else got away with won't help you in the least. You run your risks however you want, but they're still risks and have actual consequences. Often unpleasant and expensive ones.



A daycare is a business. Making money off of other people’s IP absolutely crosses the line. Not sure as to relevance?
They weren't making money off the IP, directly. They already made their money in hosting other people's children. What they did was show a Disney movie and get sued for it. If you dislike the daycare example because it's a business, there are plenty of google-able cases of Disney suing non-profits and school districts over illegal use of it's IP.
 

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