Slate article on Gary's legacy (Merged with Gary Gygax Slandered)

[GrumpyOldMan]

It seems to me that the writer does not know much about gaming history. It's interesting that he says:

"As a game designer, Gygax is far outclassed by contemporaries such as Steve Jackson and Greg Stafford."

First, gaming is personal preference, you've just got to look at anyones house rules, or the recent discussions here on armour to appreciate that we all like different things. I think that HarnMaster is the finest game out there. I'll find few who agree with me, but it's what I like. So outclassed? No!

Second, I don't know much abour Steve Jackson (or GURPS), but Greg Stafford? Greg created Glorantha, a game world, not a rules system. He co-wrote the RuneQuest rules with (IIRC) Steve Perrin and Ray Turney. In fact Steve Perrin still sells 'Steve Perrins Quest Rules' (known as SPQR) which, according to the blurb are 'devised by Steve Perrin as a successor and alternate to his popular RuneQuest(tm) rules. (The italics are mine). Greg Stafford is, I've no doubt, a giant in the industry, but AFAIK the only rules he's ever written are the PenDragon rules. I love both RQ and Pendragon, they're two of my favourite games, but both owe DnD.

Runequest is percentage based but has seven characteristics, originally rolled on 3d6 and mostly recongisable to DnDers (missing is wisdom, new are Size (how big your character is) and Power (these days it would be called Mana or somesuch)

Pendragon uses similar characteristics and a d20!

The article seems to be a troll.

 

[Teflon Billy]

It seems to me that the writer does not know much about gaming history. It's interesting that he says:

"As a game designer, Gygax is far outclassed by contemporaries such as Steve Jackson and Greg Stafford."

First, gaming is personal preference, you've just got to look at anyones house rules, or the recent discussions here on armour to appreciate that we all like different things. I think that HarnMaster is the finest game out there. I'll find few who agree with me, but it's what I like. So outclassed? No!

Second, I don't know much abour Steve Jackson (or GURPS), but Greg Stafford? Greg created Glorantha, a game world, not a rules system. He co-wrote the RuneQuest rules with (IIRC) Steve Perrin and Ray Turney. In fact Steve Perrin still sells 'Steve Perrins Quest Rules' (known as SPQR) which, according to the blurb are 'devised by Steve Perrin as a successor and alternate to his popular RuneQuest(tm) rules. (The italics are mine). Greg Stafford is, I've no doubt, a giant in the industry, but AFAIK the only rules he's ever written are the PenDragon rules. I love both RQ and Pendragon, they're two of my favourite games, but both owe DnD.

Runequest is percentage based but has seven characteristics, originally rolled on 3d6 and mostly recongisable to DnDers (missing is wisdom, new are Size (how big your character is) and Power (these days it would be called Mana or somesuch)

Pendragon uses similar characteristics and a d20!

The article seems to be a troll.

I'm pretty sure Greg Stafford is responsible for Call of Cthulhu as well.

Stafford is unequivocally a "Big Deal" in the industry.

I still think the article's author is a moron, though probably not a slanderer (as I understand the term)

 

[Glyfair]

Second, I don't know much abour Steve Jackson (or GURPS), but Greg Stafford? Greg created Glorantha, a game world, not a rules system. He co-wrote the RuneQuest rules with (IIRC) Steve Perrin and Ray Turney. In fact Steve Perrin still sells 'Steve Perrins Quest Rules' (known as SPQR) which, according to the blurb are 'devised by Steve Perrin as a successor and alternate to his popular RuneQuest(tm) rules. (The italics are mine). Greg Stafford is, I've no doubt, a giant in the industry, but AFAIK the only rules he's ever written are the PenDragon rules. I love both RQ and Pendragon, they're two of my favourite games, but both owe DnD.

Yes, giving Greg much credit for the RQ or Heroquest system would be incorrect. However, he is a hall-of-fame game designer and deservedly.

First, he is responsible for Pendragon. Pendragon is somewhat derivative of D&D and Runequest. But it does have many revolutionary game concepts that Greg was responsible for. Particularly the personality traits system that is still reasonably unique.

He also created the little credited Prince Valiant RPG. If you want a rules light storytelling game, you can't go wrong by digging up this hard to find gem. It even includes rules for shifting GMs during the game, a revolutionary concept at the time (OK, even now it's revolutionary).

Finally, he helped create another revolutionary game system, Ghostbusters. This shows up a lot when game designers discuss games that influenced them. I admit, I'm not too familiar with the game system myself (unlike the previously mentioned games), and only know it was the first dice pool RPG. However, it shows up quite a bit when revolutionary games systems are mentioned, and Greg gets much of the credit (as well as Sandy Petersen).

I personally don't credit the notion that Greg was more influential than Gygax. The only person I think that could really be argued to be as influential possibly be Arneson, and I won't touch that argument with a 10 ft. pole. Still, Greg's position as a revolutionary game designer is very solid.

As for the original article, the author clearly is of the indy school that wants to disown D&D as an RPG. He would probably strongly agree with a recent John Wick blog entry where he came up with a definition of RPGs that excludes D&D as an RPG*. It's a point-of-view, but one I feel is just too extremist. It would be like a modern car enthusiast coming up with a definition of automobile that excluded the model T.

* Essentially Wick made part of being an RPG having a systematic reward for acting in character. Since D&D has never explicitly had this sort of a rule, it's not an RPG by his definition.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

I'm pretty sure Greg Stafford is responsible for Call of Cthulhu as well.

Stafford is unequivocally a "Big Deal" in the industry.

Nope, that wuz (mainly) Sandy Peterson, who stripped down the RuneQuest rules into what folk these days call 'Basic Role-Playing' and who created the game that eclipsed RuneQuest.

Stafford is a big deal, but not (IMO) principally as a game designer.

 

[Dr Simon]

If you look in old editions of Wyrms Footnotes, you'll find that the original games in Glorantha used a system similar to a House-ruled D&D. I think the expression 'standing on the shouldler of giants' comes to mind here.

 

[Derro]

Stafford is primarily responsible for Glorantha which is one of the most enduring role-playing mythologies. As I just read in Wikipedia he also founded Chaosium which is a pretty big deal. TSR is no longer around but Chaosium still is. Gasping it's last breaths apparently.

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fthagn indeed...

 

[Psion]

I saw this article about Gygax and was horrified! So in fact I also started a petition to let us give our 2cents as well.

FWIW, there have been at least 2 other threads about this in the last week.

As for petitions... that, much like another thread on the subject, just drives more people to the site and more ad money to slate. The best thing you can do is ignore it.

 

[DestroyYouAlot]

I saw this article about Gygax and was horrified! So in fact I also started a petition to let us give our 2cents as well.

Yeah, he's just a DB that did a poorly-researched article to get page hits. He's still entitled to his say, no reason to start up a big stink about it; it's just that "his say" is retarded.

 

[Nikosandros]

I strongly disliked that article, but I disagree with the GURPS slandering...

 

[Midknightsun]

Meh, bad mouthing a dead man. What poor form. Really, I agree with some of the other posters. Just ignore it, the guy's obviously an idiot.