Sneak Attack Rogue Optimization help.

[Kor]

I am looking for advise for a Sneak Attack optimized rogue.

The Rogue's Handbook is dated and doesn't make reference to some of the latest feats and class options since the PHB II.

The character I have spec'ed out is human (can't beat that feat and extra skills). The concept is to get into battle to assist the tank(s) and then withdraw to safety. The adaptable flanker and vexing flanker feats form the core abilities of the character -- this way he is able to stand next to the tanks and easily able to withdraw to safety. With two-weapon fighting thrown in -- the character should be able to deliver some pretty decent damage.

The build I have in mind starts as such:

1 - Rogue BAB +0 (Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes) (Sneak Attack +1d6)
2 - Rogue BAB +1
3 - Rogue BAB +2 (Feat: Vexing Flanker) (Sneak Attack +2d6)
4 - Rogue BAB +3
5 - Rogue BAB +3 (Sneak Attack +3d6)
6 - Rogue BAB +4 (Feat: Adaptable Flanker)
7 - Rogue BAB +5 (Ability: Sneak Attack +4d6)
8 - Rogue BAB +6/+1
9 - Rogue BAB +6/+1 (Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting) (Sneak Attack +5d6)
10 - Rogue BAB +7/+2 (Ability: Opportunist)

From here, I think its best to concentrate on making sure all those attacks do hit. (The +4 from Vexing flanker should really be helping though).

Switch to Swashbuckler to gain better BAB and HP's and Fort saves. Taking the Daring Outlaw feat will add back in sneak attack damage and reflex save bonuses. Rogue skill progression pretty much stops at this point.

11 - Swashbuckler BAB +8/+3 (Ability: Weapon Finesse)
12 - Swashbuckler BAB +9/+4 (Feat: Disemboweling Strike) (Ability: Grace +1)
13 - Swashbuckler BAB +10/+5 (Insightful Strike)
14 - Swashbuckler BAB +11/+6/+1
15 - Swashbuckler BAB +12/+7/+2 (Feat: Daring Outlaw)(Sneak Attack +8d6) (Ability: Dogde Bonus +1)

With disembowling strike in the arsenal, now its all about maximizing damage.

16 - Fighter BAB +13/+8/+3 (Feat: Improved Critical - Shortsword)
17 - Fighter BAB +14/+9/+4 (Feat: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting)
18 - Fighter BAB +15/+10/+5 (Feat: Weapon Focus - Shortsword)
19 - Fighter BAB +16/+11/+6/+1 (Feat: Weapon Specialization - Shortsword)
20 - ?? Some prestige class that gives +1 BAB and an ability that stacks with sneak attack?

I am not familiar with what all the class variants and class options are, that are available for rogues. (The only one's I know of are in UA and CC). Any suggestions would be helpful.

I would definately be taking the "Death's Ruin" alternative class feature from Complete Champion, so undead would not be completely immune to my sneak attacks.

Perhaps there is a more appropriate PrC for levels 16 - 20?

Any comments/critisisms would be appreciated.

 

[Darklone]

Why not start earlier with Swashbuckler levels? You'll like the Int to damage thing and leveling up is faster at low levels. So take Daring Outlaw ASAP and enjoy full sneak attack.

Invisible Blade looks like a must have for this class, perhaps Master Thrower too. Invisblade has full BAB plus sneak attack, so your sneak attack will be higher than for a singleclass rogue if you keep your rogue levels odd.

I'd take a look at some alternative Swashbuckler class abilities, there are some in PHB2 (IIRC switch the Dodge bonus to a shield bonus with TWF) and a real nice one in Comp Mage that turns your Grace into spell like abilities (Swift actions) for Blur and other nice spells.

Telling Blow in PHB2 looks like a must have, all your criticals are sneak attacks as well.

Two Weapon Pounce sounds interesting too. Charge attacks with both weapons. Which was the ambush feat that lowered strength?

Some luck feats have IIRC abilities that may be used nicely with sneak attacks and don't forget some skill tricks from Comp Scoundrel! There are some nice defensive ones to get up from prone and some nice offensive ones that help you to sneak attack someone during battle.

Edit: Tempest would be a real good class later on for Spring Attacks plus full attack actions.

 

[Kor]

Thanks Darklone... some great ideas there! I'm going to design the build now

I had looked at Tempest, however a lot of the feats required for it could be better replaced by other feats. Ultimatley it just gives improved chances to hit that I think could be supplimented by other feats.

 

[Darklone]

The best tempest ability is not the bonus to hit but the Spring attack while attacking with several weapons. But yeah, lotsa feats as prerequisites.

Hmm, I don't recall any other full BAB sneak attack classes right now... but it might be worth to look into some of the ambush feats and multiclass a little bit with scout for Swift Ambusher. You'll lose a little bit sneak attack but you'll gain many more options.

 

[Mistwell]

Why not start earlier with Swashbuckler levels? You'll like the Int to damage thing and leveling up is faster at low levels. So take Daring Outlaw ASAP and enjoy full sneak attack.

Invisible Blade looks like a must have for this class, perhaps Master Thrower too. Invisblade has full BAB plus sneak attack, so your sneak attack will be higher than for a singleclass rogue if you keep your rogue levels odd.

Both Invisible Blade and Master Thrower seem to be entirely different concepts than the one proposed here. Both are ranged attackers, not spring attackers. In fact, they are ranged Dagger Throwers - which seems very specialized compared to the sort of stuff the OP seems to be talking about. Great for a halfling rogue with a focus on ranged thrown attacks, but not so great for a human spring attacker who said he wants to stand next to the tanks and withdraw (an implication of melee combat).

 

[Darklone]

Invisible Blade is the melee part of the original 10 levels prestige class sonofapreacherman submitted (Master Thrower is the ranged combat part, I proposed it because you should always be able to do a little bit of both)... so I guess you confuse it with Whisperwind or something else?

InvisBlade (CW) is the class with feint as free action, full BAB and normal sneak attack progression.. but you have to use knives/daggers/kukris. Kukris are great for Telling Blow, Swashbucklers with high Int and fighter/rogues with WS.

 

[Mistwell]

Invisible Blade is the melee part of the original 10 levels prestige class sonofapreacherman submitted (Master Thrower is the ranged combat part, I proposed it because you should always be able to do a little bit of both)... so I guess you confuse it with Whisperwind or something else?

InvisBlade (CW) is the class with feint as free action, full BAB and normal sneak attack progression.. but you have to use knives/daggers/kukris. Kukris are great for Telling Blow, Swashbucklers with high Int and fighter/rogues with WS.

I didn't confuse anything.

Invisible blade requires Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Weapon Focus (dagger, Kukri, or punching dagger). That isn't a melee focused character. It might be fine for a small throwing-oriented character (like Halfling, with their bonus to thrown weapons and low strength). For a human rogue spring attacker, that is a huge chunk of their feats dedicated to something entirely different from the concept of this character.

In addition, one of the Invisible Blade's key abilities requires you use NO armor (so there goes your enchanted elven chain - a pretty standard item for any rogue who may be in melee). Again, not something for a melee-oriented character.

It's clearly intended as a dagger-throwing PC. You can force it into a melee PRC, but it's not nearly optimized for that. Particularly since the OP wants the spring attack chain of feats (three feats alone), and wants flanking feats (two more at least) he would be so incredibly feat poor as to seriously hamper his character to go into that PRC.

Nor is he even gaining that much. Full BAB is not that far off from carefully choosing when to enter another prestige class or other base class, and you lose half your skill points doing it (and, as mentioned, a huge chunk of feats), and most of what you get is just better feinting abilities - which really are not all that useful for a spring attacker who can almost always get into a flanking position with that feat chain to begin with, and would need to be pumping Bluff to do it anyway (despite losing all those skill points)!

BTW, if the Original Poster is looking for more feats in line with what he mentioned already, maybe take a look at the Elusive Target feat (though you can mostly ignore the first ability). It is in the Spring Attack chain of feats, uses your dodge feat, and helps out in some of the situations where you get caught not 15' from your foes (which is the usual goal with a spring attacker - and a common problem once the DM starts to chase you with opponents).

Text of feat:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070608a

Elusive Target (from Complete Warrior ): The Elusive Target feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.

Negate Power Attack: To use this maneuver, you must designate a specific foe to be affected by your Dodge feat. If that foe uses the Power Attack feat against you, the foe gains no bonus on the damage roll but still takes the corresponding penalty on the attack roll.

Diverting Defense: To use this maneuver, you must be flanked and you must designate one of the flanking attackers to be affected by your Dodge feat. The first attack of the round from the designated attacker automatically misses you and may strike the other flanking foe instead; the attacking creature makes an attack roll normally, and its ally is considered flat-footed. If the designated attacker is making a full attack against you, its second and subsequent attacks function normally.

Cause Overreach: To use this maneuver, you must provoke an attack of opportunity from a foe by moving out of a threatened square. If the foe misses you, you can make a free trip attempt against this foe, and the foe does not get a chance to trip you if your attempt fails.

 

[Darklone]

Good point about the armor, I forgot that.

The prerequisites are wrong because they have been taken from the original 10 level class, the author posted more than once on several boards that he would rather use Weapon Finesse and Weapon focus (with a dagger weapon) for Invisible Blade. Sadly this didn't make it yet into the official errata (at least not last time this came up).

 

[dirkformica]

Invisible Blade has to be one of the most abused classes ever. WoTC completely changed the class from the way the original designer intended (which was a mix of both range and melee focused on feinting and sneak attacks) but left the original pre-reqs (which no longer made sense since they took away all the ranged stuff from the actual class abilities.) Then they errated it to neuter the best aspect of the class (free action feinting) and make the free feint only usable once per round.

If I was going to make a sneak attack machine (which admittedly isn't the sole focus of the OP) I would probably make some kind of Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster or Daggerspell Mage. Nab Outsider type somehow (race, other classes, or Fiendform spell) and Polymorph/Draconic Polymorph/Shapechange into a Kelvezu demon from Monster Manual 2 to get +8d6 sneak attack. Then use Unseen Seer (Complete Mage) to get Hunter's Eye from Player's Handbook 2 to get an additional 1d6 per Caster Level / 3 boost to sneak attack.

I wish I could find a reasonable way to get Hunter's Eye on a Cleric based build to DM Persist it and Draconic Polymorph.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Take a level of Swordsage and get the stance that makes all adjacent targets become flanked. That'll space you from having to take Combat Reflexes, Adaptable Flanker, and Vexing Flanker. Instead, take Snap Kick (free extra attack), and then some of the "trade sneak attack dice for cool effects" feats.