Sneak Attack Undead Feat for you to attack

[jknevitt]

I'll chime in on this one (being the DM in question).

The point of the feat was something highly specialized that allowed a character to do something that characters are normally unable to do (isn't that what Feats are about?).

There are quite a few classes that allow something like this (the Skullclan Hunter and Rich Bulew's Divine Trickster are two that come to mind immediately) so it was our aim to come up with something similar to those abilities, but in Feat form.

There seems to be a big issue over prereqs. They're flexible. There's also a bit of discussion of whether this kind of feat should be allowed at all. That has me curious.

Why is it 2 dice less SA damage? How did you come up with that? And why should it increase? If your DM allows you to SA undead (and thus be able to crit them, which opens up an entirely new can of worms with Keen and Imp. Critical), how can stabbing the same spot inflict more damage when SA goes up?

A Sneak Attack is not a Critical. It is only classified as such when it comes to creatures that are immune to Criticals (ie "Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks."). This feat would only allow an undead creature to be Sneaked, not Criticalled. Or, if you want to word it differently, to do extra damage equal to a rogue's SA bonus.

If there is only one weak spot on undead (according to your premise), then you should just be able to get a specific effect for hitting that spot.

Splitting hairs combined with bad wording in the first place. Don't think of it as a physical point on the undead's body. Think of it as mystically striking the center of the undead's (un)essence of being. As a rogue (or whatever) with this Feat goes up in levels and increases their Sneak Attack, they also learn how to more effectively focus that special strike to do more damage.

 

[Enamel_32]

If I were you, I would add another requirement for the attack itself, such as expending a spell slot, turn/rebuke undead attempt, or something else of that nature. Being a stike to the undead's animating energy, the attacker should have to give up something too. The sneak attack may not be the best option for this, if that was the case. You could expand the feat so those with similar physiology/living-based damage bonuses (skirmish, range precision, psychic strike, etc.).

 

[jknevitt]

If I were you, I would add another requirement for the attack itself, such as expending a spell slot, turn/rebuke undead attempt, or something else of that nature. Being a stike to the undead's animating energy, the attacker should have to give up something too. The sneak attack may not be the best option for this, if that was the case. You could expand the feat so those with similar physiology/living-based damage bonuses (skirmish, range precision, psychic strike, etc.).

Perhaps a limited-use clause. A number of times per day equal to half total SA dice?

 

[Enamel_32]

I was thinking hp damage, but that works too.

 

[DreamChaser]

Okay...with some of the feedback in mind!

Undead Hunter
You know how to strike undead so it hurts.
Prerequisite: BAB +6, Sneak Attack +4d6, Favored Enemy-Undead +2 or Knowledge (Religion) 10 ranks,
Benefit: While using a +1 or better magical weapon, you can strike at the very heart of the energy that animates a corporeal undead creature. If you meet the requirements for a sneak attack, you can deal additional damage equal to half (round down) of your normal sneak attack dice. You must have a ghost touch weapon to affect incorporeal undead.

This way it can't be less than a 9th level feat, no matter what. And the most damage a rogue could do is +5d6 and that's if they don't take any other class levels. This feat is unsual in that it is contingent upon a magical weapon in order to work, which means that being disarmed/dealing with improvise weapons hurts.

What do you think!

DC

 

[Nyaricus]

To recap "you do not get a FEAT SLOT, you get a FEAT;" and other relevant issues

And it is a major house rule to allow "feat saving." The rules have always been clear that you don't get a Feat Slot you get a feat.

very good wording here, which dispells any thought of getting this at 5th level (for the original feat). To recap "you do not get a FEAT SLOT, you get a FEAT." Doing otherwise is allowing your players to go ape and munchkin out a potentually good game (and i know someone will say thatthis feat is munchkiny in response to that, but my response would be: its balanced; go away)

Undead Hunter
You know how to strike undead so it hurts.
Prerequisite: BAB +6, Sneak Attack +4d6, Favored Enemy-Undead +2 or Knowledge (Religion) 10 ranks,
Benefit: While using a +1 or better magical weapon, you can strike at the very heart of the energy that animates a corporeal undead creature. If you meet the requirements for a sneak attack, you can deal additional damage equal to half (round down) of your normal sneak attack dice. You must have a ghost touch weapon to affect incorporeal undead.

This way it can't be less than a 9th level feat, no matter what. And the most damage a rogue could do is +5d6 and that's if they don't take any other class levels. This feat is unusual in that it is contingent upon a magical weapon in order to work, which means that being disarmed/dealing with improvise weapons hurts.

okay, the +4d6 Sneak Attack was a nice addition (7th level prereq), my suggestion of +6 BAB was a good one too (thast a level 8 for a pure-clas rogue), but now your Knowledge and FE prereqs are off balanced. you need to be character level 7 for the knowledge part, but a level one ranger could meet the alternative prereq. i think you should bring down the knowledge part. why? well, if you increased the ranger FE prereq, you wouldnt be able to get this for level 9 (youd need 7 levels in rogue, and 5 in ranger, which is level 12). also, a cleric gets crappy enough skills as is, so why bring him down more? as a rogue/cleric, the abilities you will be putting into will be DEX and WIS first, adn then it depends if you are a combat character or a smooth-talker type. also, you will only get one level of cleric to get the class skills, and he need skill points for Concentration too!

your other prereqs already bring this in line for a level 9 character to get, so my suggestion is maybe knock it down all the way to 4 ranks in Knowledge: religion. that way, a level cleric or level one ranger could meet the pre-reqs (that they apply for)

other than that, thanks for the awesome feat! this one will get used by my players at one point or another

 

[DreamChaser]

okay, the +4d6 Sneak Attack was a nice addition (7th level prereq), my suggestion of +6 BAB was a good one too (thast a level 8 for a pure-clas rogue), but now your Knowledge and FE prereqs are off balanced.
other than that, thanks for the awesome feat! this one will get used by my players at one point or another

hey thanks. i'm glad you're liking it.

the knowledge-religion is a good point. i'd not noticed that. it should look like this:


Undead Hunter
You know how to strike undead so it hurts.
Prerequisite: BAB +6, Sneak Attack +4d6, Favored Enemy-Undead +2 or Knowledge (Religion) 4 ranks
Benefit: While using a +1 or better magical weapon, you can strike at the very heart of the energy that animates a corporeal undead creature. If you meet the requirements for a sneak attack, you can deal additional damage equal to half (round down) of your normal sneak attack dice. You must have a ghost touch weapon to affect incorporeal undead.

 

[Nyaricus]

Undead Hunter
You know how to strike undead so it hurts.
Prerequisite: BAB +6, Sneak Attack +4d6, Favored Enemy-Undead +2 or Knowledge (Religion) 4 ranks
Benefit: While using a +1 or better magical weapon, you can strike at the very heart of the energy that animates a corporeal undead creature. If you meet the requirements for a sneak attack, you can deal additional damage equal to half (round down) of your normal sneak attack dice. You must have a ghost touch weapon to affect incorporeal undead.

Excellent work! we now have a final copy, i daresay. Speaking of speaking; do we still have any naysayers to this (hopefully) final version?

as for me, off to bed; I'll check back tomorrow evening. bye bye all!

 

[jknevitt]

Not that it really matters to me (since I'm the DM for this guy ) , but I would word the prereqs like this:

Undead Hunter
You know how to strike undead so it hurts.
Prerequisite: BAB +6 and Sneak Attack +4d6, plus Favored Enemy-Undead +2 or Knowledge (Religion) 4 ranks
Benefit: While using a +1 or better magical weapon, you can strike at the very heart of the energy that animates a corporeal undead creature. If you meet the requirements for a sneak attack, you can deal additional damage equal to half (round down) of your normal sneak attack dice. You must have a ghost touch weapon to affect incorporeal undead.

This way it's very clear that you need either:
1)BAB +6, SA +4d6, FA (Undead) +2

or

2)BAB +6, SA +4d6, Know. (Religion) 4 ranks

for the Feat.

 

[Nyaricus]

if someone has read this thread the whole way through, they'd get that.

besides, all you did was add the word "plus." not that big of a detail, but it is appreciated.

damn, do i want a rogue/cleric like this!