Sneak Attack vs. Uncanny Dodge

[werk]

... making life harder for rogues, Everywhere!

True...but rogues also get uncanny dodge.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So an invisible rogue can't sneak attack a flat-footed barbarian? Hmmm, I think that if he's got a double "denies dex bonus" going for him, that a rogue Should be able to. IMHO.

If it makes you happier:

Invisible Rogue vs barbarian. Invisibility denies Dex, but the 'invisible attacker' aspect of Uncanny Dodge lets him keep it. Single 'denies Dex' vs single 'retains Dex'. No sneak attack.

Rogue vs flat-footed barbarian. Flat-footed denies Dex, but the 'flat-footed' aspect of Uncanny Dodge lets him keep it. Single 'denies Dex' vs single 'retains Dex'. No sneak attack.

Invisible Rogue vs flat-footed barbarian. Invisibility denies Dex, but the 'invisible attacker' aspect of Uncanny Dodge lets him keep it. Flat-footed denies Dex, but the 'flat-footed' aspect of Uncanny Dodge lets him keep it. Double 'denies Dex' vs double 'retains Dex'. No sneak attack.

-Hyp.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

If it makes you happier:

Invisible Rogue vs barbarian. Invisibility denies Dex, but the 'invisible attacker' aspect of Uncanny Dodge lets him keep it. Single 'denies Dex' vs single 'retains Dex'. No sneak attack.

Rogue vs flat-footed barbarian. Flat-footed denies Dex, but the 'flat-footed' aspect of Uncanny Dodge lets him keep it. Single 'denies Dex' vs single 'retains Dex'. No sneak attack.

Invisible Rogue vs flat-footed barbarian. Invisibility denies Dex, but the 'invisible attacker' aspect of Uncanny Dodge lets him keep it. Flat-footed denies Dex, but the 'flat-footed' aspect of Uncanny Dodge lets him keep it. Double 'denies Dex' vs double 'retains Dex'. No sneak attack.

-Hyp.

Oh I understand it perfectly... I just don't like it
If I was a palyer in this instance I would petition the DM for some house rules here.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Oh I understand it perfectly... I just don't like it
If I was a palyer in this instance I would petition the DM for some house rules here.

If I was the barbarian, I'd be making horrified 'shushing' motions at you from behind the DM's back

-Hyp.

 

[FEADIN]

Oh I understand it perfectly... I just don't like it
If I was a palyer in this instance I would petition the DM for some house rules here.

Strange that you want to cut some class abilities from the poor barbarian...and from the rogue who also gets uncanny dodge.

 

[mikebr99]

Strange that you want to cut some class abilities from the poor barbarian...and from the rogue who also gets uncanny dodge.

Exactly!

The Rogue just needs to learn how to Bluff.. and he can start sneak attacking Barbarians left, right & centre!


Mike

 

[Pasus Nauran]

The Rogue just needs to learn how to Bluff.. and he can start sneak attacking Barbarians left, right & centre!

That brings up a good point: can a character deny an enemy who has Uncanny Dodge his Dex bonus to AC by Feinting in combat?

Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a -4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

 

[ARandomGod]

Going off your interpretation, Uncanny Dodge is almost like "spidey-sense," you can feel the attack coming and thus are properly prepared, enoughso that you retain your Dex. Well, just because you can see an invisible attack coming (mind you, it can't be easy to do) and you can see a flat-footed attack coming (again, foretelling this can't be easy) then I think that combining the two would be a lot harder. Unless, of course, you have Blind Fight...

Bingo! I see it as exactly like spidey sense.

Of course, I also don't see it as any harder to avoid a potentially visible opponent that you don't see coming at you (flat-footed) than it is to avoid an invisible attacker that you couldn't possibly see coming, than it is to avoid an attacker that you couldn't have seen even if you hadn't been flat-footed and couldn't see to prep for the attack.

I mean, I see how you could make such a house-rule, and I understand the logic behind it. I'm just saying that there's also plenty of logic the other way. ^_^

Oh I understand it perfectly... I just don't like it
If I was a palyer in this instance I would petition the DM for some house rules here.

If I was the barbarian, I'd be making horrified 'shushing' motions at you from behind the DM's back

-Hyp.

If I were the barbarian, I'd say to the GM "Go ahead and make that house-rule for rogues... and for rogue uncanny dodge. But leave my barbarian uncanny dodge alone!

Unless I play a rogue ever, in which case I want that ruling reversed.

Edit: So basically I'd suggest to the GM that the petitioner get a special, free, him only feat where HE gets to do this to other rogues (but not barbs, I never trust other players) and other rogues get to do this to him.

 

[FEADIN]

That brings up a good point: can a character deny an enemy who has Uncanny Dodge his Dex bonus to AC by Feinting in combat?

Yes, you can, uncanny dodge is about retaining the dext bonus while flatfooted, not in all situations, as explained in the FAQ a barbarian climbing or off balance loose his dext bonus.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead

 

[Pasus Nauran]

Yes, you can, uncanny dodge is about retaining the dext bonus while flatfooted, not in all situations, as explained in the FAQ a barbarian climbing or off balance loose his dext bonus.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead

Ahh, but again we have a difficult word to decipher: "even". The description of Uncanny dodge uses the term: "even if", not "if". The inclusion of the word "even" seems to lead me to believe the statement after it is an clarified example, and not the only situation in which the character retains their Dex bonus.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.

Reads quite differently from:

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.

NOTE: Edited for clarity