Sniping, Readying, Ambushing, Lurking

[DerekSTheRed]

I'm reading the Actions in Combat section and I've got the following scenario in my head. A rogue is sneaking up on a sentry and trying to snipe him from cover/shadows. The rogue makes a stealth/dexterity check versus the sentry's perception/wisdom check. Ties go to the rogue since the sentry doesn't know about him yet. Say the rogue wins, stays hidden and wins initiative since the sentry has -20. The rogue attacks the sentry with advantage and hits with his crossbow (and get sneak attack damage). He can then move back to cover/concealment and try to hide again, but this time ties go to the sentry since he knows about the rogue.

Now say the sentry readies his action for when the rogue pops out to shoot him with his bow. In this case, does the fact that the rogue is hidden again mean that the rogue goes first (with advantage and sneak attack) and the sentry's attack happens before the rogue can hide again? In that case, if the rogue had failed to hide again then the sentry's ready would go before the rogue attack (without advantage or sneak attack) right?

I thought that was how it was supposed to be until I read the Ambusher feat/theme in the pre-gen rogue's character sheet. Now I think the above is only true if the rogue has Ambusher, but what if he doesn't? Does popping out of cover preclude advantage/sneak attack? What if he was hiding in shadows/concealment? Would he not need the Ambusher feat to get advantage/sneak attacK?

 

[hafrogman]

The trick here is that with a crossbow, the rogue need never leave cover. He doesn't pop in and out, he becomes hidden/unhidden. Ambusher is most useful for melee attacks. You start the turn in shadows, move into the light to attack the sentry, but still get to maintain advantage due to the feat.

In the case of sniping, the combat looks something like this.

Sentry is out of cover, rogue is in cover.
Rogue attacks (advantage), hits. Rogue is in cover, but not hidden.
Rogue attempts to hide, wins check, is hidden.

Sentry readies action to attack rogue when he becomes visible.
Rogue attacks (advantage), hits. Rogue is in cover, but not hidden.
Sentry's attack resolves.

The rogue doesn't stop being hidden until he attacks, so the sentry's action cannot target him until he is no longer hidden.

 

[jshaft37]

Run it however you, as the DM, think would be the most exciting and engaging for the players! Who cares about the rules if you are having fun creating a cinematic scene where the rogue gets to shine?

 

[DerekSTheRed]

Run it however you, as the DM, think would be the most exciting and engaging for the players! Who cares about the rules if you are having fun creating a cinematic scene where the rogue gets to shine?

You sort of missed my point. I want to run the game and interpret the rules in a way that doesn't nerf the Rogue's Ambusher feat. Sort of a long winded question to get to that point I admit. But if the Ambusher feat is only good for melee attacks, then I see the benefit I guess. If the rogue wants to concentrate on ranged attacks then he probably wouldn't choose that feat and opt for something more beneficial to sniping. We just don't have one yet.

 

[mlund]

At first I was worried, especially with the Sneak Attack progression on the Rogue. Then I rechecked the rules and noticed that "Hide" takes you action for the turn, and nothing on the Rogue sheet changes this. So if you attack you can't immediately hide again. You don't get to hide as part of your move. If you want to hide to gain advantage on your attacks each time then you're working with 1 Attack / 2 Rounds.

- Marty Lund

 

[DerekSTheRed]

At first I was worried, especially with the Sneak Attack progression on the Rogue. Then I rechecked the rules and noticed that "Hide" takes you action for the turn, and nothing on the Rogue sheet changes this. So if you attack you can't immediately hide again. You don't get to hide as part of your move. If you want to hide to gain advantage on your attacks each time then you're working with 1 Attack / 2 Rounds.

- Marty Lund

That's true about the hide as an action. However, when I re-read that section I didn't see a spot where it says making an attack causes you to be seen. In which case the sentry has to make a perception check as an action to search for the rogue. As long as the rogue is in an obscured area and stays quiet, he can remain hidden. I don't think loosing an arrow from a bow or a quarrel from a crossbow counts as making a sound.

Seems to me, with there not being flanking anymore, it makes a ranged based sniper rogue more appealing than a melee based rogue.

 

[hafrogman]

Then I rechecked the rules and noticed that "Hide" takes you action for the turn, and nothing on the Rogue sheet changes this.

Oops, yeah. Marty's right. My above example is borked.

However, when I re-read that section I didn't see a spot where it says making an attack causes you to be seen.

Look under "Benefits of Being Hidden, Advantage on Attacks". Also, see the rogue's level 3 bonus.

 

[DerekSTheRed]

Yep, I see it now. I can however imagine a sniper feat or theme to silently attack with a bow or crossbow. Not sure how unbalanced that would be though.

 

[DogBackward]

There's already a sniper feat, called "Skulker", that the Rogue gets at 3rd level. Basically, it lets you stay hidden if you miss with a ranged attack while hidden.

 

[DerekSTheRed]

I was thinking of something like this.

Hidden Sniper Feat: If you are currently hidden, when you hit with a ranged weapon you may immediately make a stealth check to remain hidden. Whether your stealth check is successful or not, you lose your action next turn.

Basically, I think it's cool if the sniper rains down arrows, but no one knows where he's hiding.