So, about Expertise...

[Iron Sky]

I just want to point out that although many posters to this thread, myself included, believe both that these feats are too powerful, and that the fix these feats probably represent should be applied to the math through errata, there's a large difference between that correlation and the causation you imply. I most certainly do not think the feats should be given to everyone because they are overpowered.

I think the feats should receive errata because they are too powerful. Period. Regardless of whether or not anything is done about the math scaling problems, these feats should not exist in their current form.

I also think these feats represent an admission by WotC that they didn't intend for the math to decay as it does. Between that, some personal experience, and various anecdotal evidence, I think it's best for the game if the math gets fixed. If you agree, the best way to fix it is to apply it to all attacks for all characters, because any other approach changes the relative balance between various builds and powers.

I'm willing to concede the second issue. Not everyone agrees that it's better for the game to adjust the math. I can respect that.

I'm not willing to concede the first issue. Unless someone can convince me that the feats are not overpowered (good luck!), I will continue to call for errata to reduce their power level. My reasons for this stance can be found in the thread.

t~

This sums up this thread for me. Thanks tiornys, now I can stop coming here! Expertise = banished in my game until they can justify it.

 

[Gargoyle]

It seems to me that the feat could just have been intended to be for people who hate to miss with their dailies. No player likes to miss with an important daily power, but some really really hate it...it messes up their fun.

If that's so, maybe a good errata or house rule would be to allow the +2 at paragon and +3 at epic levels to only apply when attacking with daily powers. It would still be a great feat choice, and not overpowered or as boring.

(psst, take this and run with it WotC!)

 

[Lurker37]

If these feats are not an attempt to fix the math then are simply too powerful compared to the other +1 hit feats (which have no scaling). They furthermore fly directly in the face of what feats were initially described as - they are in fact textbook examples of the sort of feats we were told 4E would not have.

Personally, I believe that these scaling feats are an attempt to fix the divergence at higher levels between PC attacks and Monster defences. It just doesn't make sense to me for the feats to scale like this otherwise.

If so, then this is a problem because all future 4E design is likely to be based on the assumption that all PCs have these feats.

The problem with that assumption is that, paradoxically, while these feats are too powerful at level 15+ (where the bonus is +2 or +3), they simultaneously fail to address the problem because they are not broad enough:

A character who uses more than one weapon (either dual wielding or switching between them ) or who uses a weapon and an implement needs to take two feats just to remain level with another character concept that uses only one weapon or only an implement. Heck, last time I checked there was even a feat to allow wizards to get benefits with two implements - that wizard would now also need to buy expertise twice. Heaven help someone using three.

Worse yet, there are powers that cannot ever benefit from these feats, as they have neither weapon nor implement as keywords.

So we have a pair of feats that (by 15th level) are so good as to be almost mandatory, which some characters will need to take two or more times, and which some powers can never get benefit from.

Sacrificing one feat slot to fix the math is bad, but I can live with it. Sacrificing more than one feat slot, and still having the math still be broken (and unfixable) for some powers is, in my opinion, just not acceptable.

I fervently hope that a future errata removes these feats entirely, as even with the scaling removed the issue with some classes needing to take the feat multiple times, and with some powers unable to benefit, remain.

 

[CapnZapp]

How about the following change?

Expertise (Heroic Feat)
Benefit: Choose a frequency of power: either At-Will, Encounter or Daily. You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with any power you use for that frequency. The bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level.

 

[KarinsDad]

How about the following change?

Expertise (Heroic Feat)
Benefit: Choose a frequency of power: either At-Will, Encounter or Daily. You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with any power you use for that frequency. The bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level.

Lousy.

It means that the PC would need to take the feat 3 times, just so that his powers attack the same.

The point is not to limit the feat. The point is to give the feat to everyone for free. If not just to help out with the massive number of hit points that high level monsters have and to decrease the grind. A high epic PC that hits 40% of the time with the current rules would hit 55% of the time with the free feat. This increases his overall damage by ~33% (20's are close to double damage). Hence, that would decrease the number of rounds of combat by ~25%. A 20 round encounter would end in ~15 rounds instead (e.g. PCs do 800 hit points of damage in the same time as they previously did 600 hit points of damage).

 

[Tuft]

Worse yet, there are powers that cannot ever benefit from these feats, as they have neither weapon nor implement as keywords.

I'm curious, which powers are those?

 

[keterys]

Race powers (Dragonborn breath weapon, Drow Darkfire, etc), some Paragon Path powers (Scion of Arkhosia powers for instance), some item powers (Scintillating Robe, for instance), occasionally other attack powers like Shield Bash...

 

[Regicide]

The point is not to limit the feat. The point is to give the feat to everyone for free. If not just to help out with the massive number of hit points that high level monsters have and to decrease the grind. A high epic PC that hits 40% of the time with the current rules would hit 55% of the time with the free feat. This increases his overall damage by ~33% (20's are close to double damage). Hence, that would decrease the number of rounds of combat by ~25%. A 20 round encounter would end in ~15 rounds instead (e.g. PCs do 800 hit points of damage in the same time as they previously did 600 hit points of damage).

The effect that giving this feat for free to everyone would be that DMs would have to throw even higher level monsters at the PCs to maintain what is an already too-low challenge level. By epic this feat is like giving the players 4-6 levels... Level +8 fight anyone?

 

[keterys]

By epic this feat is like giving the players 4-6 levels...

Indeed, +3 attack is a _lot_ like ~30 hp, +1 to two ability scores, +3 attack, +3 all defenses, all skills, a new encounter, a new daily, and a new utility.

Err, what?

 

[KarinsDad]

Indeed, +3 attack is a _lot_ like ~30 hp, +1 to two ability scores, +3 attack, +3 all defenses, all skills, a new encounter, a new daily, and a new utility.

Err, what?

And don't forget +1 better magical items.

Logic does not matter in debates like this. Only who can say the funniest buzzphrase.


He does have a point though. I've solved this in my game by having paragon and epic monsters do more damage. I've also increased the recharge rate of monster attacks by one at epic level. Course, it might be two years before the PCs actually get that high of level ...