So, about those Man of Steel reviews...

[Herschel]

Yeah, I do have a fairly strong attachment to the characters (I also didn't like that Bruce Wayne wasn't that smart).

Actually, he was brilliant, he just underplayed it and leaned on guys like Lucious Fox who were even more technically brilliant. Otherwise, how would he have had time to conceptualize and make all those wonderful toys? In The Dark Knight Rises they show that he was really smarter and more resourceful than even what those closest to him understood.

However, the utter commitment to chaos just wasn't gripping, to me. Whimsy I understand, and expect. And there was some of that there, but it wasn't the focus. No, the focus was on chaos, and that bored me.

I get where you're coming from but it just wouldn't have fit in the movie IMO. He had to be feared by the mob, smart enough to be able to fly under the radar for years and yet mastermind an endgoal that would seriously sew chaos in as many corners imaginable. The whimsical Joker isn't as strictly menacing nor able to be played out in a single movie.

 

[Morrus]

I can't get on board with any non-killing non-psychopathic version of The Joker. Allowances made for the 60s TV series which was played for laughs.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I think it's pretty clear thematically, too, when you look at his schemes and his propaganda, as it were, that all of it is reactionary to the Batman phenomenon and is designed to get his attention and provoke confrontation. It's also pretty clear that he let himself be captured so there would be a face-to-face meeting. I also think we see plenty of Bruce agonizing over his responsibility in the chaos that ensues, particularly the impostor Bat-character who gets tortured and killed. It blows by fast, but I don't know how much more one could ask for in a two-hour movie. There's not a lot of depth available in that time.

I think he definitely wanted a confrontation with Batman, but he seemed to be motivated by Chaos, not by Batman. Batman was like a side project, almost, instead of the Chaos. Just my take on the movie, though; not saying your take is invalid or anything.

Those lines were also central in the first trailer, such that I think a lot of people went into the movie with that idea in mind.

I think this may have contributed to me wanting more of it, and then feeling disappointed when I didn't feel like I got it. Haven't really thought about the trailer playing into it until now.

Now, if they had been able to continue the story in the third one, then it would have been interesting to see what they would have done.

Oh, agreed. It could have been very interesting.

I do too, I just found it more effective. Since I went in expecting nuance and pretense and there was none, it made the movie more impactful. The sheer purity of the character is what shocked and disturbed so many people.

Now don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the Frank Miller joker, or the Arkham Asylum joker from the video games, and those are very different (and still quite dark). Reinvention is part of the comic book world.

Yeah, I quite liked the Arkham Asylum Joker, too (haven't read Frank Miller's). I think I was expecting something more along those lines (including him being a cold-blooded murderer), rather than the focus on Chaos. But, yep, you're right, reinvention is part of the comic book world, and I admitted to being in the minority on Nolan's Joker from the beginning, so it's not like it was a bad choice for them. Just not what I wanted out of it, personally. Again, still a good movie.

Actually, he was brilliant, he just underplayed it and leaned on guys like Lucious Fox who were even more technically brilliant. Otherwise, how would he have had time to conceptualize and make all those wonderful toys? In The Dark Knight Rises they show that he was really smarter and more resourceful than even what those closest to him understood.

The end of TDKR definitely showed a glimpse of it, but he was never Batman smart. Like, one of the 1-3 smartest people on the planet smart. I've always loved that about his character. Well, that, and that he always seems to beat his opponents at their own games (he'll solve Riddler's puzzles, he'll out-punch Killer Croc, he'll unravel Joker's madness, etc.).

But, yes, TDKR redeemed him somewhat at the end, there.

I get where you're coming from but it just wouldn't have fit in the movie IMO. He had to be feared by the mob, smart enough to be able to fly under the radar for years and yet mastermind an endgoal that would seriously sew chaos in as many corners imaginable. The whimsical Joker isn't as strictly menacing nor able to be played out in a single movie.

You know, the "single movie" thing might be a really good point, actually. The movie was already moving so fast, and still felt thin in a lot of areas (like their treatment of Two-Face). I think that even actually giving Joker all the focus may not have been enough, if they focused more on whimsy. An interesting thought. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[MarkB]

I never felt like the Dark Knight Joker lived up to the way he was presented. There's all the stuff in dialogue about him being an agent of chaos, not being "the man with a plan", and yet every single one of his schemes requires detailed, intricate pre-planning and set-up.

He claims to want to sow chaos, and yet he'd be helpless in a chaotic world - each of his schemes relies upon people acting in predictable, socially-programmed ways, and the moment they don't do so, his schemes fall apart.

Heath Ledger's performance is excellent, and the character has a lot of screen presence, but he never quite felt real to me.

 

[Everett]

I never felt like the Dark Knight Joker lived up to the way he was presented. There's all the stuff in dialogue about him being an agent of chaos, not being "the man with a plan", and yet every single one of his schemes requires detailed, intricate pre-planning and set-up.

He claims to want to sow chaos, and yet he'd be helpless in a chaotic world - each of his schemes relies upon people acting in predictable, socially-programmed ways, and the moment they don't do so, his schemes fall apart.

I don't think that's a flaw in the movie. Yes, he has the long monologue to Dent in the hospital about being an agent of chaos, yet he's continually executing complex plots; that's because he's a LIAR. Just as with his differing stories about how he got the scars, he says what he wants, whenever he wants, and the panache with which Heath Ledger pulled off that psychotic character schism is what puts his Joker head and shoulders above all the other screen interpretations, IMO. (Live action; I never watched TAS; you always hear that Mark Hamill was brilliant but I couldn't say.) Grant Morrison addresses this point in his book, Supergods.

 

[Morrus]

Yeah, I don't think you're supposed to believe what the Joker says or claims in TDR.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I think he definitely wanted a confrontation with Batman, but he seemed to be motivated by Chaos, not by Batman. Batman was like a side project, almost, instead of the Chaos.

Seems to me that he was trying to destroy Order, and he went after the mayor, the judge, the police, even the heads of organized crime. Confronting the larger than life symbol of justice that is the Batman seems a natural conclusion to his journey.

Just not what I wanted out of it, personally. Again, still a good movie.

Hey, fair enough.

I never felt like the Dark Knight Joker lived up to the way he was presented. There's all the stuff in dialogue about him being an agent of chaos, not being "the man with a plan", and yet every single one of his schemes requires detailed, intricate pre-planning and set-up.

I would call that either hypocrisy or simply deception. And indeed, I certainly would hope that a character such as the Joker would clearly be an example of both of those things.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Seems to me that he was trying to destroy Order, and he went after the mayor, the judge, the police, even the heads of organized crime. Confronting the larger than life symbol of justice that is the Batman seems a natural conclusion to his journey.

I agree. Batman was the end goal of his focus on Chaos, just not so much his goal in general. I think that's the bit that bugged me.

Hey, fair enough.

 

[Everett]

I agree. Batman was the end goal of his focus on Chaos, just not so much his goal in general. I think that's the bit that bugged me.

"Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Your feelings about the character are whatever they are, but it's an excellent film.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Your feelings about the character are whatever they are, but it's an excellent film.

I did quite enjoy it.