So... Do Summoned Creatures Suck?

[DracoSuave]

The problem is, AA, durations don't work like that.

There's two types of durations, sustained, and conditional.

Conditional duration simply means 'Event X stops this effect from continuing.' You can have multiple conditions operating on the same power, without them overriding each other.

Now, had the power said 'This power ends when you take an extended rest' then that is an implicit override of the existing condition in the keyword. That condition can never be satisfied unless you replace the 'until end of encounter' condition.

But Summon Shadow Servant does not do that. It simply assigns three conditions that are fully capable of being executed without excepting the keyword as well. Nothing in the power overrides the keyword for duration. Other things... yes.

The wording on Summon Shadow Servant is exactly like Summon Warlock's Ally for the hexblade, and that doesn't last beyond the end of encounter either.

 

[On Puget Sound]

I find myself strongly persuaded by the promo text, and based on that I think the definition of "otherwise" is hazy enough in English to accept that what the power does is in fact what the promo text says it does - gives you a minion that lasts until one of the clauses stated in the power makes it go away. Of course, I am outnumbered 5 to 1 by DracoSuave, which is never a confident position.

As the OP says, if it vanishes the first time a bad guy sneezes at it anyway, it doesn't matter how long it could theoretically last.

 

[keterys]

The wording on Summon Shadow Servant is exactly like Summon Warlock's Ally for the hexblade, and that doesn't last beyond the end of encounter either.

Summon Warlock's Ally has "or until the end of the encounter" in its line, actually.

 

[DracoSuave]

Summon Warlock's Ally has "or until the end of the encounter" in its line, actually.

I was very tired when I read it, apparently.

It still doesn't change anything... not one syllable of the wizard power indicates that it's an exception to the Summoning keyword. The question isn't what it does say for when it ends... the question is, does it say it does not end when its own keyword states so?

Powers DO follow the rules of their keywords. right?

 

[keterys]

*shrug* It's pretty simple. We know intent is that it lasts until it's destroyed.

We have a rule that WotC thinks does that. There are two ways to interpret it - either it overrides the general duration rule, and it is definitely a modification of the general rule no matter what, or it doesn't and it doesn't do what WotC thinks it does.

So, no matter what, we know how to actually rule it at the table, and we know how to actually interpret their particular piece of "specific" rules text. It's actually refreshing, given how often in these odd rules pieces we don't know which of multiple interpretations actually is the intended one.

So, yeah, its specific duration, listed in all of its particulars, trumps the general rule from the rules compendium.

Similarly, when the servant dies, you don't take both "half your bloodied value" _and_ "your surge value", following first the general rules for Summons, then the specific rule from servant. Despite the fact that servant's "you take your surge value when the servant dies" doesn't specify you don't take the general half bloodied value when it dies, you do one or the other.

 

[DracoSuave]

*shrug* It's pretty simple. We know intent is that it lasts until it's destroyed.

And it's absolutely not worded in order to show that intent. That's a poorly worded power.

The thing with conditional durations, is that you can have multiple conditional durations acting on the same power. And there are many examples of powers that have conditional durations set on them by keywords or other game rules, but -also- have conditional durations set on them by the power itself.

For example, an effect that mark automatically has a conditional duration set on it: 'until the mark is superceded.' That isn't overwrote by 'until end of turn' or 'until end of encounter' durations because those do not except the general rule.

The same principle applies here. The keyword applies the 'Until end of encounter' duration, but the actual power itself doesn't have any durations that can except that. You can have a power end 'when the creature is at 0 hit points' and that isn't mutually exclusive with the original duration. You can have a power end 'when you use a minor action to dispel it' and that also isn't mutually exclusive. And 'When you use the power again' also is not mutually exclusive... not in a game with ways to recharge dailies.

The exception simply does not exist and while it IS clear that they have expressed some sort of idea for what the power should do... the problem is... that is not what is written down.

But is it the case that the idea of what the power should do is the intent of what the power does or is it, instead, a mistake on how the power works?

They've done the latter before, you know.

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The power's 'intent' is not consistent with every other power in the game that has a conditional duration imposed by external forces. If powers can overrule such conditional durations without explicit exceptions, then that means no conjuration that is movable will end if it goes out of range. It means that sustained duration power will -always- ignore the limit on their length. It means that any duration written in a power, at all, supercedes any of the rules for how their keywords work. There IS precedent for why this power must end at end of encounter, and the other interpretation... that unrelated duration conditions erase the original conditional duration... actually breaks the game.

 

[keterys]

You've got two examples of summon powers in the new books. One says it lasts until end of encounter. The other is identical, but has that line removed, and a statement that says "and now it lasts until your undead minion dies". It's pretty darn clear how it's supposed to work.

So, I don't know who you're arguing with - feel free to submit errata for the power that it should specify "instead of until the end of the encounter", if you want. That would certainly help clarify the power. I'm also tempted to submit it shouldn't change the damage you take from half bloodied to surge value, since that makes bonuses to surge value less effective. But I have to admit, I doubt there are many actual tables (not to be confused with internet arguments) where it's being run off intent.

The real trick is that it doesn't even expire at the end of an extended rest. It might last for weeks. It's "instantaneous", apparently.

 

[DracoSuave]

You've got two examples of summon powers in the new books. One says it lasts until end of encounter. The other is identical, but has that line removed, and a statement that says "and now it lasts until your undead minion dies". It's pretty darn clear how it's supposed to work.

The Summoning Keyword's duration limit is ALSO in those same books.

It's not clear at all. 'Clear' means that it's explicit, or that it's absolutely implicit in terms of replacement. 'half your bloodied value' can easily replace, or be replaced by, 'your surge value' and create an exception in either case. 'Your Level + 4' can easily replace 'Your attack stats'. But nothing in the summons can replace 'until the end of the encounter.' There's nothing there that even refers to it.

Do you not understand the difference? It isn't enough to say 'This ends when A, B, or C' because A, B, or C don't replace D, because D has nothing to do with A, B, or C.

In other words, if you want the power to end at end of encounter, you need text that says it can do so... and that text simply. Does. Not. Exist.

Repeating 'But this thing over here says powers can do that!' isn't rules text, any more than previous 'interpretations' of existing rules that managed to be absolutely wrong have been rules text.

 

[spayne]

It depends on the summons and how you build around it. For example, an invokers Blade Angel summons has a minor action attack, meaning they can attack three times a round - get an ally to drop an all-round damage booster on that baby and you have some serious damage potential.

The Blade Angel minor action attack is only usable once per round. (RC 120). The summoner is the one making the attack so the damage boost would need to go on the summoner. Temporary bonuses do not affect the summoned creature's attacks, so it would have to be something that does not count as a bonus.

 

[DracoSuave]

The Blade Angel minor action attack is only usable once per round. (RC 120). The summoner is the one making the attack so the damage boost would need to go on the summoner. Temporary bonuses do not affect the summoned creature's attacks, so it would have to be something that does not count as a bonus.

Temporary boosts on the -caster- don't work. Putting it on the summons works just fine.