So has the D20 STL been officially revoked?

[Morrus]

We all know that the only source of information that the D20 STL was going to be revoked January 1st, 2009 was a single forumpost by Scott Rouse. I'm curious to whether or not there actually HAS been any revokations of the licenses today?

You are, or work for, a publisher (Dreamscarred Press)?

Yikes.

The d20 STL was revoked in June 2008. It was never "going to be revoked January 1st, 2009".

A courtesy 6-month sell-off period was allowed by WotC for those with outstanding stock that needed to be shifted. That period is over.

 

[Morrus]

Yes, no NEW licenses are opened, but the old one haven't been revoked and thus you can continue to sell D20-licensed material after Jan 1.

This statement is completely untrue.

Please, folks, if you're reading this and publishing, be aware that the d20STL was revoked in June 2008.

And remember - NEVER use an internet forum for legal advice. This thread is an excellent example of why. If you read this thread and still feel for some reaosn that you have the right to release d20 branded products, please do yourself a favour and check with a lawyer first.

 

[see]

And remember - NEVER use an internet forum for legal advice. This thread is an excellent example of why.

Yes.

I would strongly recommend approaching your lawyer, rather than relying on the statements of a non-lawyer in the forums, as to whether the d20STL could be terminated in the absence of a breach, even though it contained no provision for such a termination. Especially if WotC has made no attempt to contact you at the address you gave them upon entering the d20STL to inform you about any termination.

 

[Angellis_ater]

You are, or work for, a publisher (Dreamscarred Press)?

Yikes.

The d20 STL was revoked in June 2008. It was never "going to be revoked January 1st, 2009".

A courtesy 6-month sell-off period was allowed by WotC for those with outstanding stock that needed to be shifted. That period is over.

Ok, revoked might not be the best use of words. I'm not a 1st language user, so let's say TERMINATION, the act required for a publisher like us to not be allowed to continue to sell material that has already been licensed under the D20STL before June 2008.

We cannot publish NEW books with the D20STL, but I would be VERY happy if you could provide me the details where Wizards has commenced a international termination of the license.

Please refer me to WHERE the information on the 6-month sell-off period was posted in an OFFICIAL manner for all users of the license? Since you, yourself, has told me NOT to go by what someone says on a forum. An official note on the Wizards website? Someone contacting us or any other publisher, for that matter?

Since the license hasn't been terminated, it is still ongoing. Termination, by the latest released D20STL, can only be done by us breaching the conditions. So, Wizards needs to either update the D20STL with a termination clause for themselves (since we must always use and refer to the latest version of the D20STL) or find us in breach.

So, I still remain fully convinced that there has been NO termination of the license, for anyone - and that the "6 month grace period" was something Scott wrote, in passing, on the ENWorld forums alone.

Here, have a look for yourself: http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/d20stlv6.rtf - read it and tell me WHERE it says "can be terminated without contact with the Publisher". Please.

 

[CapnZapp]

But Angellis, what makes you think Wizards need the law on their side?

If you go ahead, and you're sued, that's the last of your Dreamscarred Press we're ever gonna see.

So I would definitely heed the advice you're getting here. That is, act as if they had bothered to approach you personally with a termination clause even though they most likely have not.

Cheers,
Zapp

 

[dmccoy1693]

Please refer me to WHERE the information on the 6-month sell-off period was posted in an OFFICIAL manner for all users of the license? Since you, yourself, has told me NOT to go by what someone says on a forum. An official note on the Wizards website? Someone contacting us or any other publisher, for that matter?

If you go ahead, and you're sued, that's the last of your Dreamscarred Press we're ever gonna see.

Ditto what CapnZapp said. No argument that Wizards has not handled this well (like everything else relating to the 4E rollout), but 4E did arrive and the old license is no longer valid. All that remains is figuring out which option is better: playing it safe and removing the d20 logo/all required text from all your products or opening DSP up to the possibility of law suits against Wizards?

 

[Brown Jenkin]

But Angellis, what makes you think Wizards need the law on their side?

If you go ahead, and you're sued, that's the last of your Dreamscarred Press we're ever gonna see.

So I would definitely heed the advice you're getting here. That is, act as if they had bothered to approach you personally with a termination clause even though they most likely have not.

Cheers,
Zapp

This is in no way a recommendation to Angellis, and I am in no way a lawyer. It seems to me that if WotC sues, that it may not be the end of Dreamscarred press but rather a break to publishing while the countersuit for harassment and legal fees is resolved.

 

[kenmarable]

My interest and participation in this thread isn't the practical "Can you still use the d20 license?", but delving into the license and seeing what the actual terms are.

Because I really don't need to pay a lawyer to tell me it's questionable that a forum post on a fan website by an employee of a company means that said company has terminated a license they have with my company even though that license doesn't even have a termination clause (except in the case of breach). It's an overpriced way for someone to tell you, "If you want an official answer, get a legally-binding one straight from the company."

Of course, WotC's intentions are clear, so in the practical sense I'm not going to use the d20 logo since you don't want to mess with the big dog. (And a lawyer is a high priced way for someone to tell you that as well.)

Bottom line - don't use the logo and associated wording anymore.

However, has the d20 STL been officially revoked/terminated? I still say the d20 STL version 6 cannot be terminated without breach. Until a version 7 comes out that says no one can use the logo anymore, it's still in effect for anyone who "sent in a confirmation card or downloaded the enclosed graphics".

But of course, I wouldn't bet any money on it, because as I said above, you don't mess with the big dog. Right or wrong, they can make a lot of pain for a small publisher. That doesn't mean it's an illegitimate and uninformed question to read the actual legally-binding d20 STL license itself, and not some forum posts in this thread or from any WotC employees and realize that the status of the d20 STL is technically up in the air at the moment. I don't think analyzing the actual terms of the license warrants:

You are, or work for, a publisher (Dreamscarred Press)?

Yikes.

I'd imagine it's prudent as a publisher to actually dig into these legal documents and see their real terms and implications.

That being said, I will repeat others that Bottom line - don't use the logo and associated wording anymore. Besides it probably hasn't been worth it for a couple years anyway.

 

[Marius Delphus]

As I understand it, the facts are these.

WOTC owns the d20 trademark, lock, stock, and barrel. It is theirs to do with as they please.

WOTC permitted products bearing the d20 trademark to enter the stream of commerce unchallenged pursuant to the D20 System Trademark License.

The D20 System Trademark License was terminated in June. Products bearing the d20 trademark created in good faith using the license were granted a sell-off period. The sell-off period has ended.

Therefore, I conclude that any product now bearing the d20 trademark which is in the stream of commerce technically infringes WOTC's trademark, because WOTC no longer grants permission for its use under any license whatsoever.

 

[Bacris]

Therefore, I conclude that any product now bearing the d20 trademark which is in the stream of commerce technically infringes WOTC's trademark, because WOTC no longer grants permission for its use under any license whatsoever.

Which is exactly why Russ recommend no one use internet posts as legal advice.

There is also a reason why Dreamscarred Press hasn't used the d20 STL in quite some time and instead publishes using only the Open Gaming License or a Create Commons License.

However, Ken is 100% accurate - the only "termination" clause in the d20 license is for breach of contract. I'm not going to get into the ramifications of this or the legalities, because I am not a lawyer and don't want my comments to be construed as such or as coming from a lawyer.