D&D 5E So, how hard is it to kill PCs anyway?

[jgsugden]

I think the goblin cutting the rope would count as a trap which the OP ruled out?

The PCs placed the rope. The PCs climbed the rope. All the goblin (which was following them) did was cut it as they climbed.

By definition, the CR system should indicate that you should not be at reasonable risk of a TPK unless there are unusual environmental considerations. If you put aside unbalanced creatures like pixies, then some form of physical assistance is required.

However, if you want a neutral battlefield, your best bet is a few pixies.

 

[FrogReaver]

The PCs placed the rope. The PCs climbed the rope. All the goblin (which was following them) did was cut it as they climbed.

By definition, the CR system should indicate that you should not be at reasonable risk of a TPK unless there are unusual environmental considerations. If you put aside unbalanced creatures like pixies, then some form of physical assistance is required.

However, if you want a neutral battlefield, your best bet is a few pixies.

Your PC's failed to avoid the trap of goblin cuts rope and took 10d6 falling damage or whatever for it.

 

[Draegn]

I use my version of critical hits and fumbles in conjunction with added weapon skills. Combat is very deadly and nasty. However most TPK times happen when a player does something without thought. One player in the past when fighting pirates decided it would be a great idea to board the other ship, go to the gun deck and cast burning hands at the gun crews, never once thinking about what the poor little powder monkeys were carrying in their tiny hands. We gave this character the name Cogito Ergo Boom.

 

[FrogReaver]

I use my version of critical hits and fumbles in conjunction with added weapon skills. Combat is very deadly and nasty. However most TPK times happen when a player does something without thought. One player in the past when fighting pirates decided it would be a great idea to board the other ship, go to the gun deck and cast burning hands at the gun crews, never once thinking about what the poor little powder monkeys were carrying in their tiny hands. We gave this character the name Cogito Ergo Boom.

IMO, it's usually the DM's fault in failing to properly frame a scene when players make really stupid decisions.

 

[jgsugden]

Your PC's failed to avoid the trap of goblin cuts rope and took 10d6 falling damage or whatever for it.

A trap is something that is set up to provide an ambush or otherwise catch opponents unaware. No trap was laid, here. The PCs set up their own situation and the monster - which was following them - acted upon the situation they set up.

If your point is that the primary damage/lethality came from something other than the monster - yes, it did. If that disqualifies it as an example for this discussion, so be it. However, it is not a trap.

IMO, it's usually the DM's fault in failing to properly frame a scene when players make really stupid decisions.

While a DM can always do more to remind PCs of something - it may be best if they do not. D&D is an RPG. Characters play roles in a story. You're looking for a good story - and sometimes a memorable death is going to result in the best story. A great DM always foreshadows or warns of dangers - but that doesn't mean they have to put bumper rails on the bowling alley.

Also, it is very possible for a PC in a situation such as the one described to not be in a position to note the danger, or to understand the danger. There might be perception or intelligence ability/skill checks involved.

 

[FrogReaver]

A trap is something that is set up to provide an ambush or otherwise catch opponents unaware. No trap was laid, here. The PCs set up their own situation and the monster - which was following them - acted upon the situation they set up.

If your point is that the primary damage/lethality came from something other than the monster - yes, it did. If that disqualifies it as an example for this discussion, so be it. However, it is not a trap.While a DM can always do more to remind PCs of something - it may be best if they do not. D&D is an RPG. Characters play roles in a story. You're looking for a good story - and sometimes a memorable death is going to result in the best story. A great DM always foreshadows or warns of dangers - but that doesn't mean they have to put bumper rails on the bowling alley.

Also, it is very possible for a PC in a situation such as the one described to not be in a position to note the danger, or to understand the danger. There might be perception or intelligence ability/skill checks involved.

1. Blah, the next step in escalation of the great Goblin/trap debate is to get into semantics about whether it actually can be considered a trap on your definition etc. Count me out. I'm not conceding anything but we can move forward with it being disqualified based on those other merits. That's good enough for this discussion

2. Considering the only window the players have into the DM's world and the particular scene they are in is what he tells them about it then it's typically going to be the DM's fault if they describe the world in such a way the PC does outstandingly dumb.

 

[guachi]

Killing PCs is hard because of the existence of death saves.

I've had three PCs die from failed death saves and one make a death save with two failures before being healed.

The first occasion was the NPCs mistaking the PCs for killing their friend and, after the the PC who did the shooting was brought to zero HP, an NPC attacked him inflicting two death saves. He made his death save and the NPCs were dispatched the next round.

The first actual death was retconned away because I, as DM, made a mistake. But at the time it was caused by the PC rolling a 1 on a death save. The creatures they were fighting were dispatched the next round and the PCs used their scroll of raise dead so the PC was dead for all of six seconds.

The other two deaths were from the party encountering three hell hounds and their nasty breath weapon. A PC had the highest initiative thanks to the Alert feat and cast ice shield. Normally a 6th level Arcane Trickster she was temporarily possessed by an 11th level Wizard. This saved her life as 18d6 of breath weapons from the hell hounds that went second in the round dropped the other three PCs to zero. Even so, the wizard soloed the hell hounds in the following two rounds with two upcast Shatters, the only non-fire AOE she had and beneficial because of its low radius in this particular situation.

Two of the three downed PCs failed three straight death saves.

TL;DR: Really bad luck on death saves is the only way I've come close to killing PCs.

 

[iserith]

Killing PCs is hard because of the existence of death saves.

Agreed - most deaths in my campaigns have been due to massive damage or a monster hitting a downed PC to rack up two death saves followed by a failed one or a player rolling a 1 on the death save after already failing one.

 

[Sleepy Walker]

In times Ive run i know that i probably err on making fights too easy most times, but I think I under estimate the ingenuity and resources of most players.

If you were to create a moderate cr fight for a tier 2+ fight, do you think you'd be able to kill them?

No traps, no special items. Just pure tactics and playing ruthlessly.

Yes. Probably revolving around hobgoblins, ogres or orcs, and/or bugbears (depending on level of party). Hobgoblins stay behind defensive fortification (see terrain or something they fashioned), maybe only one or two visible to see combat. Focused longbow fire on casters or targets engaged with the ogres. Reserve stealth bugbear force or orc flanking charge if at higher levels.

At a certain point there is a good chance that at least one PC can run away, so a full TPK at tier 2+ is not the easiest when dealing with a medium encounter.

 

[pukunui]

I think it is only rude if it makes no sense.

Indeed. If the party is fighting a pack of gnolls with hyenas, the hyenas might stop to feed on a downed PC while the gnolls go rampaging after the other PCs.

If the party is facing a group of ghouls, one might stop to feed on a downed PC, perhaps even dragging them away first.

Basically, I generally only ever have a monster attack a downed PC if its goal is to actually eat the PC.