D&D 5E So today I realised that half-casters in 5e actually have a distinct feel

[The Crimson Binome]

That's purely the magical mechanics. If you look at more general effects, there's even more structural similarity - mostly utility powers at level 1, fighting style at level 2, extra attack at level 5, etc.

They don't get the fighting style and extra attack because they're half casters; they get those abilities because they're half fighters.

 

[ccooke]

They don't get the fighting style and extra attack because they're half casters; they get those abilities because they're half fighters.

Good catch. I must have edited out the bit about them both being half-caster half-fighter - that's why I didn't include it in the "stuff you gets as a half caster" bit.

 

[Ashrym]

"Up to" is indeed RAW, but "up to min(desired range, 6 miles)" is not explicitly RAW. There's nothing that says you can decrease your detection radius at will. I agree that it wouldn't make it OP, but I'm thinking mostly of the complexity cost of introducing new house rules.

I disagree. If it was 6 miles it would state "6 miles" instead of "up to 6 miles". There's no ambiguity about "within up to 6 miles" after having changed the language from non-favored terrain, which does state "within 1 mile". It would just have used the same language of "within 6 miles" for favored terrain.

Converting word to number expressions gives us a binary yes / no on terrain so non-favored radius=1 mile and favored radius<=6 miles based on the exact wording. Ignoring that is the house rule, which seems a bit odd to state it's a weak ability and then ignore the wording to keep it a weaker ability than it is.

Why do you think there's a duration on it that increases with higher level slots? It's so the ranger can use his hide in plain sight ability, set a short range for several minutes, and get a decent warning when the ambush target arrives when engaged in evasive hit and run tactics. He knows when they are close before they arrive as they enter the range.

Don't try to interpret the ability to make it a bad ability. Forcing 6 miles instead of up to 6 miles makes it less accurate and worse in favored terrain, so I doubt that's intended.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I disagree. If it was 6 miles it would state "6 miles" instead of "up to 6 miles". There's no ambiguity about "within up to 6 miles" after having changed the language from non-favored terrain, which does state "within 1 mile". It would just have used the same language of "within 6 miles" for favored terrain.

Converting word to number expressions gives us a binary yes / no on terrain so non-favored radius=1 mile and favored radius<=6 miles based on the exact wording. Ignoring that is the house rule, which seems a bit odd to state it's a weak ability and then ignore the wording to keep it a weaker ability than it is.

Why do you think there's a duration on it that increases with higher level slots? It's so the ranger can use his hide in plain sight ability, set a short range for several minutes, and get a decent warning when the ambush target arrives when engaged in evasive hit and run tactics. He knows when they are close before they arrive as they enter the range.

Don't try to interpret the ability to make it a bad ability. Forcing 6 miles instead of up to 6 miles makes it less accurate and worse in favored terrain, so I doubt that's intended.

I don't see a lot of value in continuing to argue about this, but I would like you to clarify: you're reading a lot into the difference between "can sense... within 1 mile of you" vs. "within up to 6 miles... within Favored terrain", in both cases explicitly without revealing location. This seems odd to me because "within" and "up to" are actually synonymous, which makes it perfectly natural to just read the phrase as identical to "within 6 miles", but to clarify:

Are you claiming that the text was written this way so that within favored terrain you'd get to pick any radius between 1 and 6 miles, in order to facilitate setting ambushes?

That reading seems problematic to me on two grounds:

1.) Even if you shrink it back down to one mile, one mile is still a large radius, too large to be really actionable for ambushes. "There's a demon... somewhere within a mile of me" is not entirely useless information but it certainly doesn't help you pick a position within that square mile from which to ambush the demon when it arrives. Or are you interpreting it as "within favored terrain, you can choose any radius from zero to six miles, but outside favored terrain it is always exactly one mile"?

2.) You claim that the duration of one minute per spell slot level supports your reading, because the duration allows you to sense the target approaching and then ambush it when it gets there. But even if you use a 5th level spell slot, the ability works for only five minutes, which isn't enough time for the target to cross 6 intervening miles between it and you. Even at 120' per round directly towards you, it moves only 3600' (two thirds of a mile) before the spell runs out, so at any range for which your interpretation allows you to sense distance, the distance never approaches zero before the ability has ended. The duration does nothing to help you plan an ambush under your apparent interpretation--so how can it be supporting evidence for that interpretation?

 

[Ashrym]

I don't see a lot of value in continuing to argue about this, but I would like you to clarify: you're reading a lot into the difference between "can sense... within 1 mile of you" vs. "within up to 6 miles... within Favored terrain", in both cases explicitly without revealing location. This seems odd to me because "within" and "up to" are actually synonymous, which makes it perfectly natural to just read the phrase as identical to "within 6 miles", but to clarify:

Are you claiming that the text was written this way so that within favored terrain you'd get to pick any radius between 1 and 6 miles, in order to facilitate setting ambushes?

That reading seems problematic to me on two grounds:

1.) Even if you shrink it back down to one mile, one mile is still a large radius, too large to be really actionable for ambushes. "There's a demon... somewhere within a mile of me" is not entirely useless information but it certainly doesn't help you pick a position within that square mile from which to ambush the demon when it arrives. Or are you interpreting it as "within favored terrain, you can choose any radius from zero to six miles, but outside favored terrain it is always exactly one mile"?

2.) You claim that the duration of one minute per spell slot level supports your reading, because the duration allows you to sense the target approaching and then ambush it when it gets there. But even if you use a 5th level spell slot, the ability works for only five minutes, which isn't enough time for the target to cross 6 intervening miles between it and you. Even at 120' per round directly towards you, it moves only 3600' (two thirds of a mile) before the spell runs out, so at any range for which your interpretation allows you to sense distance, the distance never approaches zero before the ability has ended. The duration does nothing to help you plan an ambush under your apparent interpretation--so how can it be supporting evidence for that interpretation?

No where did I state within 1 to 6 miles and nowhere in the text does it state 1 to 6 miles. The 1 mile minimum is something not stated that you added. Within 1 mile encompasses all area within that 1 mile radius. Within up to 6 miles encompasses all area with a radius up to 6 miles. There's nothing being read into it. Not in favored terrain it's within a specified distance up 1 mile. In favored terrain it's within a specified distance up to 6 miles.

The duration is there because if the ranger is sensing the creatures up to 80 feet away and they are not within the 80 feet (which is a distance within 6 miles) then he senses them the moment they enter within that 80 ft radius because of the duration on the ability.


This gets back to, "Don't try to interpret the ability to make it a bad ability." A longbow fires an arrow up to 600 feet away but that doesn't mean every archer needs to shoot an arrow 600 feet away. They can all aim at targets up to 600 feet away and any target within that space. Even if it's only 10 feet. Primeval awareness isn't any different when used in favored terrain, and it's already not that useful unless in favored terrain; making it worse if favored terrain by simply making the haystack around the needle bigger is a bit backwards.

It's the "completely aware of his surroundings ability" and the ranger could be moving around with it set to 20 feet if he wanted to, maintaining it for 5 minutes, and using it to warn him undead are approaching. When the creatures cross into that area he even knows how far away they were because he set the area. Then he knows to hide.

My "interpretation" is a natural language interpretation that does exactly what the text says and includes that "up to" qualifier that you are trying to ignore.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

No where did I state within 1 to 6 miles and nowhere in the text does it state 1 to 6 miles. The 1 mile minimum is something not stated that you added. Within 1 mile encompasses all area within that 1 mile radius. Within up to 6 miles encompasses all area with a radius up to 6 miles. There's nothing being read into it. Not in favored terrain it's within a specified distance up 1 mile. In favored terrain it's within a specified distance up to 6 miles.

Then why make a big deal in post #13 about the difference between "within 1 mile" and "up to 6 miles"?

I disagree. If it was 6 miles it would state "6 miles" instead of "up to 6 miles". There's no ambiguity about "within up to 6 miles" after having changed the language from non-favored terrain, which does state "within 1 mile". It would just have used the same language of "within 6 miles" for favored terrain.

 

[Ashrym]

Then why make a big deal in post #13 about the difference between "within 1 mile" and "up to 6 miles"?

The "within 1 mile" was for non-favored terrain as a different mechanic than "up to 6 miles" for favored terrain and also demonstrates the different language used in both different circumstances. The direct text is "within 1 mile" for non-favored terrain and "within up to 6 miles" for favored terrain, to demonstrate the difference in language more clearly if it wasn't clear before.

If the ability were meant to be the same for favored terrain as non-favored terrain then it would have said "within 6 miles" instead of "within up to 6 miles" like non-favored terrain does. If there was a minimum then the language would have included a minimum, which it does not.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The "within 1 mile" was for non-favored terrain as a different mechanic than "up to 6 miles" for favored terrain and also demonstrates the different language used in both different circumstances. The direct text is "within 1 mile" for non-favored terrain and "within up to 6 miles" for favored terrain, to demonstrate the difference in language more clearly if it wasn't clear before.

If the ability were meant to be the same for favored terrain as non-favored terrain then it would have said "within 6 miles" instead of "within up to 6 miles" like non-favored terrain does. If there was a minimum then the language would have included a minimum, which it does not.

If I'm understanding you correctly, your answer to my question 'Or are you interpreting it as "within favored terrain, you can choose any radius from zero to six miles, but outside favored terrain it is always exactly one mile"?' in post #14 is therefore "Yes." Is that right?

I wasn't sure because in post #15 you seemed to be saying that even in non-favored terrain the ranger could choose the radius.

The 1 mile minimum is something not stated that you added. Within 1 mile encompasses all area within that 1 mile radius.

If I misunderstood, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. I may not agree with your reading of RAW, but in practice it doesn't matter because I have no objections (beyond added complexity) to making Primeval Awareness something other than worthless--as mentioned before, if one of my players asked to allow variable radius I'd probably say, "Sure, if it's important to you."

 

[Ashrym]

If I'm understanding you correctly, your answer to my question 'Or are you interpreting it as "within favored terrain, you can choose any radius from zero to six miles, but outside favored terrain it is always exactly one mile"?' in post #14 is therefore "Yes." Is that right?

I wasn't sure because in post #15 you seemed to be saying that even in non-favored terrain the ranger could choose the radius.



If I misunderstood, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. I may not agree with your reading of RAW, but in practice it doesn't matter because I have no objections (beyond added complexity) to making Primeval Awareness something other than worthless--as mentioned before, if one of my players asked to allow variable radius I'd probably say, "Sure, if it's important to you."

Yes, I read RAW as a fixed 1 mile radius outside of favored terrains, and within favored terrain a variable radius selected by the ranger from 0 ft to 6 miles. The ability is much more useful in favored terrain and not a bad ability following that.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Thanks for clarifying.