D&D 5E So what's the scoop on D&D in PDF Format?

[MNblockhead]

I actually copy the material so I have a copy offline and can stay out from under DDB's thumb, not specifically for purposes of printing.

I was responding to other posts that were saying printing from DDB would yield poor results. I don't find that to be the case.

For WotC D&D 5e books, yeah, if you don't have DDB, you'll need to photocopy pages from the books. Though, I will point out that some of the cartographer's that WotC uses for their adventures retain rights to sell the images. I bought the Curse of Strahd high-resolution digital maps from Mike Schley's web site and printed them at scale using a plotter printer. They didn't include the Castle Ravenloft maps, unfortunately. I had to go with non-official (but still cool) versions, which were optimized for printing or VTT use, that I bought from DMs Guild.

 

[MNblockhead]

I like PDFs not because I think they are the greatest products to read, but because I can download them and keep them personally.

I actually much prefer reading on DnD beyond or Kindle or some similar reader, but as far as I know I can't download their product to an external harddisk, and as such have to use their service to open my purchases. And that gives them power over my future enjoyment.

That's why I would always choose a PDF, over other alternatives. If I could get both though, then I would download my PDF for keeping safe, then use a more preferred service to read in regular use.

For me PDFs are like books, no big company's future guidelines can modify or restrict my access to my purchased content. If I own it, I own it.

You can download your D&D Beyond content to your phone and perhaps you laptop. I'm not sure about Windows and Linux, but on my mac I have the D&D Beyond iPhone/iPad app installed on my laptop. All the content I own can be downloaded on multiple devices. The problem isn't not being able to download, the problem is being in a format locked to an app. It isn't as future proof as PDF or EPUB files.

With official 5e content now available for Foundry, you can future proof your content a lot more, but it still is nowhere near as convenient as PDF. With how modable Foundry is, I wonder how rights-protected they can make D&D content. With existing mods, it is easy to export journal content to HTML. From there you can easily convert the HTML to PDF. I would expect someone could automate that to create a mod that will export to PDF, if such a mod doesn't already exist.

I remember the contortions RealmWorks went through to prevent exporting and sharing IP sold for RealmWorks while still making it useful for DMs.

Unless there is, or will be, some content rights management coded into Foundry that I don't know about, it seems like it would be easy to export purchased content. For those with some programming experience and understanding of JSON, they could migrate this content into other systems.

 

[MNblockhead]

I like PDFs not because I think they are the greatest products to read, but because I can download them and keep them personally.

I actually much prefer reading on DnD beyond or Kindle or some similar reader, but as far as I know I can't download their product to an external harddisk, and as such have to use their service to open my purchases. And that gives them power over my future enjoyment.

That's why I would always choose a PDF, over other alternatives. If I could get both though, then I would download my PDF for keeping safe, then use a more preferred service to read in regular use.

For me PDFs are like books, no big company's future guidelines can modify or restrict my access to my purchased content. If I own it, I own it.

When I look at the money I've spent rebuying content in multiple formats, I might as well buy two copies of my favorite, most used books. One copy is a shelf copy. Used to read, page through, but not to run game. Keep it nice and protected on book shelf. For the other copy, cut of the spine and make a high quality scan of all the pages to PDF. Take the not loose leaf pages that I scanned and spiral bind them for at table use. But DDB and VTTs are just more convenient, there are few materials that a care that much about "future proofing them", and I'm lazy. I buy the most convenient format for the what I'm using to run the game and for the few books I really love, I'll buy a physical copy.

 

[Wolfpack48]

This. I would love to have some of my TTRPG rule books on my Kindle so that I could read up on the rules when on a long plane ride in economy class where using a laptop is impractical or uncomfortable. The PDFs of most TTRPG books are nearly unreadable on a kindle. I suppose I should just get a full-powered tablet PC, but I just don't like them for reading.

Even when you do have a proper device for displaying PDFs, many publishers don't do a great job making full use of a PDF-readers functionality. At least it is common to include bookmarks, which I consider a bare minimum. It is much less common to have internal hyperlinks linked rule terms, spell and monster names, and other cross-referenceable content to the sections in the PDF. For adventures with maps in the PDF, it would be nice to have the maps formatted for printing at scale or more easily bringing into a VTT. 0one Games is the gold standard for me when it comes to PDF maps. Check out their in-pdf control panel allowing you to toggle what map features are displayed, color, etc. Plus they generally give you JPGs for VTT use along with the PDF purchase. Below is an example of their "Rule the Dungeon" control panel in their Dwarven Depths: Trade Way PDF map.

I wish more publishers would be more creative with their PDF products.

View attachment 356439

This is excellent. For me the bare minimum is an actual read-in of the text so that it can be read text to speech, and is searchable. I really appreciate it when the toc is linked and bookmarks are placed. One feature in general I would like --and this would be more a piece of Reader functionality -- would be the ability to pin a page while scrolling another. This way you could pin a map page and read/scroll the text side-by-side.

 

[LordEntrails]

I mean maybe more people should be putting out e-reader compatible RPG books. It appears to be relatively rare though, so telling people they are wrong for preferring the format that is widely available seems disingenuous.

imo, yes they should. But pointing out the shortcomings of the PDF format and refusing to accept people's thoughts that the only options are hardcopy, pdf, and DDB is genuous. What is disingenuous to me is numerous people refusal to accept that digital does not mean PDF, and that PDF is the only digital format that is possible.

In either case, purchases combined with subscription services are both untenable and anti-consumer. If people buy something, they should own it

I get this sentiment, but I also see the fallacy behind it. It's more that people need to understand "what" they are purchasing with their money. Kindle Books, Roll20, DDB and some others people are not purchasing permanent access to the product. They are purchasing temporary access.

But there are digital formats that are permanent copies. People just need to understand what is what. Not based on what they want or think something should be.

Better by what metric? I told you what my metric is.

And I told you just some of the criteria I used. But I don't think you are engaged in an honest discussion and are not open to changing your opinion even if presented with new to you information. So until that happens, let's just not bother to continue with this topic.

I like PDFs not because I think they are the greatest products to read, but because I can download them and keep them personally.
...<snip>...
For me PDFs are like books, no big company's future guidelines can modify or restrict my access to my purchased content. If I own it, I own it.

It's almost like you didn't read my earlier posts where I detailed which digital formats that you can download and keep permanent & unrestricted copies of.

 

[Reynard]

imo, yes they should. But pointing out the shortcomings of the PDF format and refusing to accept people's thoughts that the only options are hardcopy, pdf, and DDB is genuous. What is disingenuous to me is numerous people refusal to accept that digital does not mean PDF, and that PDF is the only digital format that is possible.

What other formats are currently popular in.the TTRPG space. And VTT formats don't count because they are the same proprietary, rented format as DDB.

I get this sentiment, but I also see the fallacy behind it. It's more that people need to understand "what" they are purchasing with their money. Kindle Books, Roll20, DDB and some others people are not purchasing permanent access to the product. They are purchasing temporary access.

Which is wrong and anti-consumer. Just because you aren't bothered by it doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

But there are digital formats that are permanent copies.

which?

 

[LordEntrails]

What other formats are currently popular in.the TTRPG space. And VTT formats don't count because they are the same proprietary, rented format as DDB.

Which is wrong and anti-consumer. Just because you aren't bothered by it doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

which?

VTT formats do count because some of them are NOT rented.
As I have already stated in this thread multiple times, and in other threads on this forums dozens of time;

1) Fantasy Grounds. These are downloaded to the owner's computer. And SmiteWorks has a license with WotC that they retain irrevocable permeant rights to keep copies of their products on their server that those customer who have purchased the content can re-download at any point in time. This means that since it in on your computer and their is no mechanism within the app to remove content (unlike a Kindle), your copy on your computer is permanent. It can not actually or legally be take away from you.

2) Foundry. I don't know their license agreement with WotC. But they too you download to your own computer and their is no mechanism to take it away from you.

Both of these formats are just as permanent as any PDF.

I'm pretty sure @Reynard you have been involved in those discussions before. It's frustrating to me that I put these undisputed facts out in these forums time and again, and yet people just seem to ignore them because they are contrary to their existing opinions about "digital".

 

[Reynard]

VTT formats do count because some of them are NOT rented.
As I have already stated in this thread multiple times, and in other threads on this forums dozens of time;

1) Fantasy Grounds. These are downloaded to the owner's computer. And SmiteWorks has a license with WotC that they retain irrevocable permeant rights to keep copies of their products on their server that those customer who have purchased the content can re-download at any point in time. This means that since it in on your computer and their is no mechanism within the app to remove content (unlike a Kindle), your copy on your computer is permanent. It can not actually or legally be take away from you.

2) Foundry. I don't know their license agreement with WotC. But they too you download to your own computer and their is no mechanism to take it away from you.

Both of these formats are just as permanent as any PDF.

I'm pretty sure @Reynard you have been involved in those discussions before. It's frustrating to me that I put these undisputed facts out in these forums time and again, and yet people just seem to ignore them because they are contrary to their existing opinions about "digital".

FG is only good for FG. There's no mechanism to read them outside if FG and that only remains true as long as the urchased material and the app remain in sync.

You seem to be interpreting this stuff in the most positive way imaginable, where licensors and licensees remain perfectly aligned in perpetuity and no enshittification occurs. That's naive, and I actually think you know that.

If your purchase of something requires a bespoke app to access it, it isn't perpetual. We might buy those things for convenience sake -- I run FG and therefore begrudgingly buy books on FG to facilitate play -- but we don't own them in any meaningful way.

 

[LordEntrails]

FG is only good for FG. There's no mechanism to read them outside if FG and that only remains true as long as the urchased material and the app remain in sync.

You can't read a PDF outside of a PDF reader. Yes, there are lots of apps that have PDF reading capability.

You seem to be interpreting this stuff in the most positive way imaginable, where licensors and licensees remain perfectly aligned in perpetuity and no enshittification occurs. That's naive, and I actually think you know that.

No, it's why I mentioned SmiteWorks license with WotC. And it's a clause that is in all of their licensing agreements so Paizo, Kobold, etc.

Perhaps I'm on the more positive side of this, but perhaps you are just as equally opposite in your view?

If your purchase of something requires a bespoke app to access it, it isn't perpetual. We might buy those things for convenience sake -- I run FG and therefore begrudgingly buy books on FG to facilitate play -- but we don't own them in any meaningful way.

You have the content including the app on your computer. You can still run FG Classic if you had a license for it years ago when it went away.

If FG ever goes away, you have two simple options; trust that SmiteWorks will release the decryption key like they have stated they will do if they ever go under and don't sell. Or two, decrypt the files yourself.

Sure, one can argue that digital content like this is not permanent, but neither are PDFs. Neither are paper because what happens if your house burns down or floods or gets hits by a tornado? Digital is so easy and inexpensive to make resilient to disaster, printed books are not.

So sure, you can argue the weaknesses of the digital formats I see so positively, but to do so and ignore the significant shortcomings of the paper versions you support is naive?

I'm willing to consider the pros and cons of each format. But just as it's fair for me to consider the shortcomings of various digital formats, you should also acknowledge the short comings of physical/printed.

 

[Reynard]

You can't read a PDF outside of a PDF reader. Yes, there are lots of apps that have PDF reading capability.

No, it's why I mentioned SmiteWorks license with WotC. And it's a clause that is in all of their licensing agreements so Paizo, Kobold, etc.

Perhaps I'm on the more positive side of this, but perhaps you are just as equally opposite in your view?

You have the content including the app on your computer. You can still run FG Classic if you had a license for it years ago when it went away.

If FG ever goes away, you have two simple options; trust that SmiteWorks will release the decryption key like they have stated they will do if they ever go under and don't sell. Or two, decrypt the files yourself.

Sure, one can argue that digital content like this is not permanent, but neither are PDFs. Neither are paper because what happens if your house burns down or floods or gets hits by a tornado? Digital is so easy and inexpensive to make resilient to disaster, printed books are not.

So sure, you can argue the weaknesses of the digital formats I see so positively, but to do so and ignore the significant shortcomings of the paper versions you support is naive?

I'm willing to consider the pros and cons of each format. But just as it's fair for me to consider the shortcomings of various digital formats, you should also acknowledge the short comings of physical/printed.

Buying material dependent on the ongoing existence of a company and ongoing compatibility of an app is, by definition, impermanent. I can't figure out why you are lobbying otherwise, but it is easily demonstrable that you are wrong.