Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 3)

[Stalker0]

My problem with heighten spell without cap is that the following:

I could enlarge a fireball, or I could raise its DC by 3, 4, as high as 6 in some cases. That's virtually 3 feats rolled into one (if you go by the old spell focus feat, including the epic one.... 6 if they increased by 1)

In my mind, heighten is so much stronger than the other free feats as it is right now. I believe even caped at a +1 or +2 its still a good choice that people will take, because its useful for so many spells, and while there are days I can see a sorc not needing his enlarged virtual feat, what sorc wouldn't want to boost a few spell dcs by 1 or 2 everyday?

As far as SR goes, Khaalis said: "The more magic they channel, the more magic they build up within themselves, the more resistant they become to magic from without."

But that's not all, they become resistant to their own spells as well unless they take a standard action to lower their SR. Now that might not be a problem for some, but it doesn't sit right with me... I think we can do better.

On that note, I still ike either the +2 metamagic for free or the quicken spell 1/day. I think getting one 5th level spell quickened for free once per day is not too bad, the medium quickened rod allows wizards to do it 3 times per day and the price is cheap for a 20th level caster.

As far as quickening spells beyond 1 round casting times, I agree it looks really scary and powerful. But I'm curious, let's think about it a bit, would there be 5th level or lower spells that this would apply to that would be horribly overpowered for a 20th level caster? I'm honestly curious.

For the gypsy curse, perhaps at 17th level they should get access to another curse, like at 20th they can do all those effects, perhaps at 17th they already get a few of them. Also, Khaalis your explanation of how the true curse works makes me even more certain that it needs for explanation. I didn't even know neutralize poison wouldn't help. I can see a lot of people being confused by the ability. The ability itself is great, it just needs some clarification.

For teh 20th level, again I don't think they need to be made an outsider. They get true curse, legend lore x times per day (at no material cost), and timelessness. Heck, I would take it, that sounds really cool. No need to make them an outsider, the way its worded it just makes them immune to certain spells that only target persons, and I don't really see that as part of the epitomy of being a gypsy.


Finally, on the issue of power, I'm with Khaalis that the sorc needs a definate boost in versatility. But I agree with most that the sorc will compete fine with other classes given this versatility. So I would say everytime we add something, we should at the same time look and say can we trim some power without loosing versatility? Can we expand but contract at the same time. Giving the sorc the lineage spells has done two huge things.

1) Given sorcs more spells known. As # of sorc spells known starts to = number of wizard spells known, Spontaneous casting > prepared casting.

2) Allowed the sorc those obscure spells that are really cool but most sorcs can never take. Leomund's secret chest, tenser's floating disk, leomund's secure shelter- spells that would be fun for a sorc to have on occasion but are generally too limited use for them to spend spells known on. Now with lineage spells we can give them some!! They can still get all the spells that will make them useful to the party, but we can throw in a few "pure fun" spells to let them go at it. That in itself is one of the things that excites me most about the lineages - and one of the things in my mind that has expanded the sorcs versatility more than anything else we've done.

With all that said, that means at the same time we should be looking to tweak power elsewhere. I haven't mentioned that yet because I'm working on these lineages, but once those are good I think we will want to cut back in power at other places.

 

[Khaalis]

Quickly before bed.

My problem with heighten spell without cap is that the following:
I could enlarge a fireball, or I could raise its DC by 3, 4, as high as 6 in some cases. That's virtually 3 feats rolled into one (if you go by the old spell focus feat, including the epic one.... 6 if they increased by 1)
In my mind, heighten is so much stronger than the other free feats as it is right now. I believe even caped at a +1 or +2 its still a good choice that people will take, because its useful for so many spells, and while there are days I can see a sorc not needing his enlarged virtual feat, what sorc wouldn't want to boost a few spell dcs by 1 or 2 everyday?

I can kinda see your point. I will try to go post this on the D&D rules board and see what kind of responses we get.

As far as SR goes, {snip} But that's not all, they become resistant to their own spells as well unless they take a standard action to lower their SR. Now that might not be a problem for some, but it doesn't sit right with me... I think we can do better.

You only took a part of the statement.

Per the SRD from “Magic Overview”…
“SPELL RESISTANCE
Spell resistance is a special defensive ability. If your spell is being resisted by a creature with spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance for the spell to affect that creature. The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks. Include any adjustments to your caster level to this caster level check.
The Spell Resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place.
The terms “object” and “harmless” mean the same thing for spell resistance as they do for saving throws. A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by a spell noted as harmless. In such a case, you do not need to make the caster level check described above.”

Only SOME spells are affected by this restriction. For example, Cure spells are not. Only Undead may apply spell resistance. As for the rest it makes perfect sense. It acts like Magical AC against spells. Having to lower it makes sense. Just like targets of other spells have to be “Willing” or in some cases, a caster has to actually make a Touch Attack to cast beneficial touch spells if that other person is not motionless.

On that note, I still ike either the +2 metamagic for free or the quicken spell 1/day. I think getting one 5th level spell quickened for free once per day is not too bad, the medium quickened rod allows wizards to do it 3 times per day and the price is cheap for a 20th level caster.

But that does still require the use of a magic item, something much more easily “denied” access to by a DM that doesn’t like it, Especially since it’s a Splat book and not a core item.

As far as quickening spells beyond 1 round casting times, I agree it looks really scary and powerful. But I'm curious, let's think about it a bit, would there be 5th level or lower spells that this would apply to that would be horribly overpowered for a 20th level caster? I'm honestly curious.

Lets see, 1st-5th level spells with over 1 round Casting time. Also assume that someone lets the sorcerer gain spells outside the Wizard schools, such as the Nature Sorcerer or PrC’s. Also note this is only Core spells and doesn’t count the Hundreds of new spells floating out there that could be easily abused with this. (If I missed any – sorry.)

Wiz: Arcane Eye (10 min), Break Enchantment (1 min), Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (10 min), Contact Other Plane (10 min), Dream (1 min), Fabricate (1 minute per 10 cubic foot), Fire Trap (10 min), Hallucinatory Terrain (10 min), Identify (1 hour), Illusory Script (1 min+), Leomund’s Secret Chest (10 min), Leomund’s Secure Shelter (10 min), Major Creation (10 min), Minor Creation (1 min), Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum (10 min), Nightmare (10 min), Permanency (2 rounds), Phantom Steed (10 min), Lesser Planar Binding (10 min), Prying Eyes (1 min), Scrying (1 hr), Secret Page (10 min), Sending (10 min), Sepia Snake Sigil (10 min), Symbol of Pain (10 min), Symbol of Sleep (10 min)

(Most all of these could have great impact on combat if used quickened or make other things MUCH simpler such as escapes from combat.)

Non: Atonement (1 hour), Augury (1 min), Awaken (24 hrs), Bless Water (1 min), Commune (10 min), Commune-Nature (10 min), Create Food & Water (10 min), Curse Water (1 min), Divination (10 min), Glyph of Warding (10 min), Hallow & Unhallow (24 hrs), Imbue with Spell Ability (10 min), Mark of Justice (10 min), Lesser Planar ally (10 min), Raise Dead (1 min), Reincarnate (10 min), Lesser Restoration & Restoration (3 rounds), Snare (3 rounds), Speak with Dead (10 min)

For the gypsy curse, perhaps at 17th level they should get access to another curse, like at 20th they can do all those effects, perhaps at 17th they already get a few of them. Also, Khaalis your explanation of how the true curse works makes me even more certain that it needs for explanation. I didn't even know neutralize poison wouldn't help. I can see a lot of people being confused by the ability. The ability itself is great, it just needs some clarification.

On the Poison – or maybe just remove poison as it is a very specific spell and the spell itself crosses the line between spell and mundane since it’s a spell but causes poison damage…

As for 17th, I have been trying to keep 17th a growth of 9th as a bridge to 20th. As for a different curse I don’t know of any others. The only thing I could think would be to move True Curse to 17th and call it Improved Evil Eye (or somesuch) but only give spells of up to say 6th level and at 20th let them bestow curses such as Lycanthrope and spells over 6th level?
Thoughts?

For teh 20th level, again I don't think they need to be made an outsider. They get true curse, legend lore x times per day (at no material cost), and timelessness. Heck, I would take it, that sounds really cool. No need to make them an outsider, the way its worded it just makes them immune to certain spells that only target persons, and I don't really see that as part of the epitomy of being a gypsy.

Those things are a part of the outsider. Also – everything else but these 2 become something…
As for the epitome of gypsy, it isn’t per say it’s the epitome of being a gypsy Sorcerer. Other classes can be gypsys, but only a rare few a True Gypsy Sorcerers.

Finally, on the issue of power, I'm with Khaalis that the sorc needs a definate boost in versatility. But I agree with most that the sorc will compete fine with other classes given this versatility. So I would say everytime we add something, we should at the same time look and say can we trim some power without loosing versatility? Can we expand but contract at the same time. Giving the sorc the lineage spells has done two huge things.
1) Given sorcs more spells known. As # of sorc spells known starts to = number of wizard spells known, Spontaneous casting > prepared casting.
2) Allowed the sorc those obscure spells that are really cool but most sorcs can never take. Leomund's secret chest, tenser's floating disk, leomund's secure shelter- spells that would be fun for a sorc to have on occasion but are generally too limited use for them to spend spells known on. Now with lineage spells we can give them some!! They can still get all the spells that will make them useful to the party, but we can throw in a few "pure fun" spells to let them go at it. That in itself is one of the things that excites me most about the lineages - and one of the things in my mind that has expanded the sorcs versatility more than anything else we've done.
With all that said, that means at the same time we should be looking to tweak power elsewhere. I haven't mentioned that yet because I'm working on these lineages, but once those are good I think we will want to cut back in power at other places.

Please take this rant with a grain of salt... I'm tired and cranky and of course as always it is my opinion - but it is also the opinion of a lot of other people and is the reason this entire project began in the first place.

With that said...

On this I have argued ad nauseum. I have made my points more times than I can count. The sorcerer is THE weakest class in the game. I have playtested them, watched them playtested, and watched people complain about them since the day the books hit the shelves. They work great as-is in a very low power/low magic game. However, D&D by its core design is NOT meant to be Low-Power,Low-Magic. Which is why the core system breaks when you do things like take away Magic Items at the level they are “designed” to be given out. I would never play a core sorcerer again if I had the choice of ANY other class. And if I were forced to play one I would PrC or Multiclass out as soon as I could.

As for the spells known, it brings them on par with what a Wizard gets for free, If a DM is running a game where a Wizard cannot expand their spellbook beyond the freebies gained in the class description, they are breaking the system as designed and hacked the wizard. Is this making the Sorcerer more powerful than the wizard? No. Its making the Wizard weaker than it is designed to be. Every complaint I have ever seen about the sorcerer Always includes the complaint that it needs at least a Small boost in known spells to give it just a smidge more versatility than the same core spells all sorcerers have to take to be of any use to a party. Your #2 argument supports that all Sorcerers HAVE to mold to a certain specific set of spells to be of use. They cant take specific use spells that would specialize them in anything, or spells that are of general purpose nor can they double up such as having levitate and fly – as it’s a redundant waste of precious spell slots.

Keep in mind that the core system is designed around a 4 person party and it is designed to fill 4 sets of Shoes: the iconic party – Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and Rogue.
The wizard is part of that core for a reason. It is more powerful and more versatile in the long run and in the big picture. All of the other classes are designed to be options for substitution into this equation and Most do a fair job of equaling the power and capability of the original with a twist.
Rogue = Bard
Fighter = Barbarian, Paladin, Monk, Ranger
Cleric = Druid
All except the Sorcerer who pales in comparison and can never fill the shoes of a wizard. The core wizard Rules due to its ability to walk around with a storehouse of spells for all occasions, and keeping those slots for the combat spells. Its sheer versatility as the magic “solution” to “encounters” of ALL types can never be matched by the sorcerer.

As for the core class, I am pretty happy with where it currently resides in power versus the other classes in the game and feel it still pales considered to some (with the exception of 20th level). For further reasons why, go back through the previous posts. I have made the logic pretty clear.

Now, that’s all I can ramble on about right now – I am beat and desperately need some sleep before getting up for work in 6 hours.

 

[Stalker0]

Quickly before bed.
As for 17th, I have been trying to keep 17th a growth of 9th as a bridge to 20th. As for a different curse I don’t know of any others. The only thing I could think would be to move True Curse to 17th and call it Improved Evil Eye (or somesuch) but only give spells of up to say 6th level and at 20th let them bestow curses such as Lycanthrope and spells over 6th level?
Thoughts?


Those things are a part of the outsider. Also – everything else but these 2 become something…

Please take this rant with a grain of salt... I'm tired and cranky and of course as always it is my opinion - but it is also the opinion of a lot of other people and is the reason this entire project began in the first place.

With that said...

Your #2 argument supports that all Sorcerers HAVE to mold to a certain specific set of spells to be of use. They cant take specific use spells that would specialize them in anything, or spells that are of general purpose nor can they double up such as having levitate and fly – as it’s a redundant waste of precious spell slots.

I think if you just moved some of the true curse abilities down to the 17th level area I think you'd be fine, just slide a few over, but keep true curse at 20th.

Why does the sorc need to be an outsider for this? True curse is just an enhancement to his lineage. THe legend lore is a sp-like ability, you don't have to be an outsider for that. And timeless body is given to druids and there not outsiders. He gets all that for fulfilling his complete lineage, a true gypsy sorc. He doesn't need to be an outsider for that... and I think the abilities are powerful enough for 20th level even if he doesn't become an outsider.

You are correct, in argument 2 one of my main points was that sorcs could never fit the mold they wanted, because they had to pick up all these other spells just to function. Well, now with the lineages they can do both. The lineage spells can help set the theme of the sorc they wanted, still leaving them all the spells known from before to fill in with whatever spells they need. Now I can be a fire sorc and get lots of fire spells, but still have enough to gain the d.door, teleport, whatever spell that I would get for the party.

For a sorc who wants to be a curser/diviner... they can be a gypsy. They get bestow curse, a few divinations, some other cursing type spells... and they still get all the spells known they had before... and now that they have set there theme they can feel comfortable picking up the magic missile and shield spells... they don't feel as cramped picking spells. I think this is a wonderful thing, and I feel this really puts the sorc more on equal footing with the wizard. The wizard will always have more spells, he should its what he does.. but if the sorc can fit a character mold that the player wants to fill AND still be useful to the party then holy cow we've solved the big problem of flavor!!

 

[StAlda]

I agree with pyk that the sorcerer does not need the tremendous power boost you are giving it. Maybe we should start another thread that creates an alternate sorcerer that conforms to 3.5's flavor but does not increase the overall power.

Unfortunately, I don't have any immediate ideas. Maybe take this version and tone it down?

This is basically what I am doing. I am following this thead CLOSELY, because I think the Sorcerer should be a little more "unique". But, I also believe the Sorcerer *here* is a bit overpowered for my campaign, that is MY campaign.

My progression table looks like this

1st Aura, Lineage Bonus
2nd
3rd Arcane Sense
4th
5th
6th Innate Ability (1st)
7th
8th Lineage Ability
9th
10th
11th
12th Innate Ability (2nd)
13th
14th Imp. Lineage Ability
15th
16th
17th
18th Innate Ability (3rd)
19th
20th Gr. Lineage Ability

And I will probably tone down Greater Lineage Ability also for most of the lineages so far. Toning down is easy and certainly not worth complaining about!! I like the work going on here, keep those lineages coming!

 

[Khaalis]

This is basically what I am doing. I am following this thead CLOSELY, because I think the Sorcerer should be a little more "unique". But, I also believe the Sorcerer *here* is a bit overpowered for my campaign, that is MY campaign.

I might suggest for a smoother progression…
1st Aura, Lineage Bonus, Spells
3rd Arcane Sense
6th Innate Ability (1st)
9th Lineage Ability
12th Innate Ability (2nd)
15th Imp. Lineage Ability
18th Innate Ability (3rd)
20th Gr. Lineage Ability

The more I look at this, the more I think I like this. It fits all the comments about "Tone it Down" and it removes the need for the Item Familiar feat to be drawn in from a Non-Core source. It could remain a piece to be added as a suggestion for the "Options Section".

- "By jove I think he has it!"

And I will probably tone down Greater Lineage Ability also for most of the lineages so far. Toning down is easy and certainly not worth complaining about!! I like the work going on here, keep those lineages coming!

Agreed, toning down is easier. We shall see where it goes.

As for the outsider argument, as I have said – I went with the suggestions that the Sorcerer transform into something that relates to their lineage. For the General (I STILL NEED A NEW NAME), Gypsy, and Sorcerous Family – there really is no related type or subtype other than Generic Outsider like the Monk. If I don’t allow these a transformation it breaks the balance continuity of all the others.

On the Gypsy:

Lineage Abilities: The sorcerer’s affinity with gypsy magic grows over time.
.....At 9th level the gypsy sorcerer learns the ancient gypsy way of the evil eye, which is a Charisma based spell-like ability gifted to true gypsies. Three times per day, the gypsy sorcerer may curse a target as a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. The target must be visible to the sorcerer and within 60’. In all other respects the ability functions as the bestow curse spell. A Will save (DC 14 + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier) negates the effect. A failed save results in the curse holding and lasts until the recipient receives a break enchantment, limited wish, remove curse, wish, or miracle.
.....At 17th level the gypsy sorcerer’s ability to use their Evil Eye ability grows in strength. The gypsy sorcerer uses the evil eye in the standard manner, but the curse’s victims must succeed a Will save (DC 17 + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier) to negate the effect. A failed save results in the curse holding and lasts until the recipient receives a break enchantment, limited wish, wish, or miracle. Unlike the standard Evil Eye ability, the sorcerer may confer one of the following effects with each use of this curse: baleful polymorph, bestow curse, contagion, feeblemind, or nightmare.
.....At 20th level...
• Gain True Evil Eye: The gypsy sorcerer’s Evil Eye ability grows in strength once again, increasing the uses per day to 5 times per day, and victims so afflicted must succeed a Will save (DC 19 + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier) to negate the effect. A failed save results in the curse holding and lasts until the recipient receives a wish, or miracle. The effects the gypsy may bestow with each use this curse are: baleful polymorph, bestow curse, confusion, contagion, crushing despair, feeblemind, insanity or nightmare.

Hows that?

Also for any who havent noticed, all changes are being modified with a running update in the original 2 posts of THIS thread (#3)...

PS: Let me know which Lineage to post next!

 

[Grayhawk]

I might suggest for a smoother progression…
1st Aura, Lineage Bonus, Spells
3rd Arcane Sense
6th Innate Ability (1st)
9th Lineage Ability
12th Innate Ability (2nd)
15th Imp. Lineage Ability
18th Innate Ability (3rd)
20th Gr. Lineage Ability

When modifying a class, I try not to give out class abilities at the same levels as the normal feats. So I'd suggest this progression instead:

1, 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20.

 

[Khaalis]

When modifying a class, I try not to give out class abilities at the same levels as the normal feats. So I'd suggest this progression instead: 1, 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20.

Not a bad idea at all. Thanks for all the suggestions Grayhawk - keep them coming!

 

[Halma]

For your Generalist Sorcerer here are some suggestions for names:

...............................................Mage
...............................................Seeker
...............................................Theurgist
...............................................Medium
...............................................Thaumaturge


I hope this helps.

Halma

 

[Khaalis]

For your Generalist Sorcerer here are some suggestions for names: Mage, Seeker, Theurgist, Medium, Thaumaturge
I hope this helps.
Halma

Hmmm. Some interesting ideas, though I am not sure any truly fit.

Mage (as well as its source Magus/Magi) is used so commonly as a swap word with wizard that I think it would be confusing.

Theurgist & Thaumaturge = Are of the same core - practitioners of theurgy (The performance of miracles with supernatural {divine} assistance, Magic performed with the aid of beneficent spirits) or a title given by the Roman Catholics to some saints.

Much more fitting to a Divine Caster. In particular I use this for a Cleric variant class I have that specializes in Channeling Divine Energy.

Seeker & Medium both give a connotation of Divination or diviners.

Other broad synonyms from your suggestions: archimage, charmer, conjurer, conjuror, diabolist, diviner, enchanter, enchantress, exorciser, exorcist, fortune-teller, genie, genius, illusionist, marvel, medicine man, medium, miracle worker, necromancer, prophet, satanist, seer, shaman, siren, soothsayer, sorcerer, spellbinder, thaumaturge, theurgist, trickster, virtuoso, voodoo, warlock, witch, witch doctor, wizard, astrologer, augurer, clairvoyant, hypnotist, magician, occultist, palmist

The problem is that most of these are already used or already descrive a very specific type of fantasy character archetype.

I think something more truly descriptive of the lineage might work better, something that denotes the lack of known heritage or the mixture of heritages.

Mongrel, Unknown, Spurious, Baseborn, Irregular, Misbegotten, Mixed, Suppositious, Hybrid, Amalgamated, Composite, Crossbreed, Tainted, Compound, Intermixed, Diversified, Miscellaneous, Varied, Variegated, Infused, Interbred, Mingled, Multifarious...

???

 

[Coredump]

Also for any who havent noticed, all changes are being modified with a running update in the original 2 posts...

HAHAHA.... When you were talking about changing the ability progression, Iwent back to see what it originally was... and it looked the same. ???

Heh heh... now I know.