Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 4)

[Bihor]

For me the idea of fey lineage should include in the lineage ability somme invisibility and a enchantment.

the Child on nature is good but I found it more druid-like

Maybe i should call my idea the sprite lineage.

and a level 20 it should get a size category smaller and get wings.

Just some creazy though , I did not sleep las night

 

[Fieari]

Hey Khaalis, I just discovered the WotC Character Optimization boards, and posted this there to see if they could break it in any way. The first thing that came up was the fact that by spending a few very low level spells, you can obtain very high level slots in little over an hour.

Weaving / Unweaving

3 2nd + 1 1st = 7th level = 5th slot
Unweave 5th slot = 2 4th level slots
Weave 2 4th level slot + 1 1st level slot = 9th level = 7th level slot
Unweave 7th level slot = 2 6th level slot
Unweave 1 6th level slot = 2 5th level slots
Weave 1 6th level slot + 1 5th level slot = 11 = 9th level slot

All from 3 2nd level slots and 2 1st level slots.

Sure, he's limited to how many he can have per day at a given time, but being able to convert 8 spell level slots into a 9th level slot only takes 1 1/2 hours. And this is off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more efficient / less timely ways to do it. Basically, unweaving is too powerful as written when used in conjunction with Weaving, and you can get around the clause of newly created spell slots.

16th level Sorceror - casts 1 8th level spell and 2 5th level spells - still has 4 5th level spells remaining
Unweave 6th = 2 5th
Weave 2 non-recharged other 5th = 10 = 8th level slot
So we can convert a 6th level spell slot into an 8th level spell slot given 30 minutes...

Weaving also doesn't specify that the cap of two spells together can or can't go over 9... what happens if you weave two 6th level spells together? Do you lose a spell level? does it just fizzle?

I thought it was an interesting point... the sorcerer in my campaign hasn't used any spell weaving at all, and of course, he's only level 5 right now, but I -could- potentially see this happening later. Level 9 slots are incredibly powerful... that's very little investment for a LOT of reward. I seem to remember while it was being discussed before (I wasn't REALLY paying attention at that time) there was talk of making sure there was always loss when weaving up... but here, you can clearly see there's gain.

 

[Khaalis]

Well, the first thing that comes to mind, is that you cant weave a spell slot you dont know a spell for, so I am assuming that this is for a high level character?

As to the question of spell levels beyond 9th, the answer would have to be no. The core system itself doesnt have spell slots over 9th so any spell weaved into a spell level higher than 9th would stay 9th, losing any extra levels. This would also count when ealing with spell levels you dont know spells for. It caps at the level you can cast, regardless of how many levels you lose past the cap.

Edit: Found the thread and posted to it.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=333275

 

[Evilhalfling]

Land Tied Sorcerer Lineages

Im working up a new campaign, and am very fond of the lineages, but there are too many to logically expect a player to choose from. I am considering limiting it to 4 lineages per contentient (with 3 of 5 designed) the last 2 are far away and have little impact on the campaign.

This would change the bloodline mechanic a bit and possibly allow loss of some ablities if you were not on home turf.
Opition 1: loose bonus spells and level linked ablilities while not on home turf.
but continue to gain them, ready to use if you return.
Option 2: keep your old ablilities but are not able to learn new ones until you return.
Option 3: your homeland deterimines your lineage, it doesn't change even if you leave.
Then comes the question of adapting to a new land. I might have some lineages that correspond, and others that are antithetical. In any case you would not be able to change lineages within a land, and would only be able to return to your previous line.

Any suggestions?

 

[Khaalis]

Im working up a new campaign, and am very fond of the lineages, but there are too many to logically expect a player to choose from. I am considering limiting it to 4 lineages per contentient (with 3 of 5 designed) the last 2 are far away and have little impact on the campaign.

This would change the bloodline mechanic a bit and possibly allow loss of some ablities if you were not on home turf.
Opition 1: loose bonus spells and level linked ablilities while not on home turf.
but continue to gain them, ready to use if you return.
Option 2: keep your old ablilities but are not able to learn new ones until you return.
Option 3: your homeland deterimines your lineage, it doesn't change even if you leave.
Then comes the question of adapting to a new land. I might have some lineages that correspond, and others that are antithetical. In any case you would not be able to change lineages within a land, and would only be able to return to your previous line.

Any suggestions?

Personally I would simply go with option 3. Your heritage is your heritage. Think about it. Your hair doesnt change color if you visit another continent, so why would any other heritage related trait? Now general spells learned through the standard 'Known Spells' mechanic could be influenced by location, but not what is durived from the blood coursing in your veins. You also cannot change linegaes. Its a part of you. JMHO.

As for the number of choices. I never intended all DM's to use them all. They are simply exmples of the more common types to choose from. Each DM should choose what lineages work best for their campaign, just as with any other race or class choices.

Hope that helps.

 

[Gustave Arcanus]

Long Time No See

What do you find as potentially unbalancing about the mutable ability at 2nd level? Some examples would be useful to see what you mean.

It's not the 2nd level ability that I find unbalancing. Actually, it is a wonderful option, especially for characters wishing to aquire an item familiar. As a sorcerer, they can do it a level earlier than a normal character can, and not spend a feat to do it, giving them a viable advantage.

What I found to be potentially unbalancing is the Mutable Variant just before the EOD. Normally I simply use the Sorc/Wizard split, but sometimes we'll experiment with others. In peticular, prestige class spell lists, when combined with the ability to learn spells a level earlier, has proven to be rather disgusting. I built a character with Displacement, Improved Invisibility, Vampiric Touch, and Haste (all thanks to Assassin and Shadow Lord splits), all as 1st level spells. What added to the raw power of this character was the fact that I still had a LOT of points left over. Enough to add Fort as a good save and gain a Fighter's base AT.

This is as designed actually. It is the same system as presented in the Unearthed Arcana and is meant to make the generic sorcerer (those not using lineages) be viable against the Wizard.

Oh, alright then.

Originally in the older threads, people voted down the ability to Spell-Like the higher level spells as being too powerful, and the 0-levels spells as a basically worthless ability. What makes you lean toward this?

Zero-level spells should never be overlooked by a good player. I've found in my experience that they can be as useful if not moreso than a higher-level spell. In fact, I can use a zero-level spell (Detect Magic, to be exact) to counter the effectiveness of a 4th-level one (Improved Invisibility). You don't see the person, but you can still see the aura of the magic. Plus, I use Cantrip (Prestidigitation) ALL the time. Gotta love old-school.

And for the higher-level spells, nobody says that you shouldn't have to spend a feat to get those spells as awakened abilities, or that you get them as often as your others. Making you take a feat in order to gain each additional spell level would preclude the highest spells until epic levels, and only granting half of the uses per day of the others would balance it out for power.

 

[Corlon]

wow, this is a pretty awesome class.

YOINK


Just one quick question...

the sorcerer gets a familiar, an animal companion, AND a summoned companion?

 

[Fieari]

No, you don't. It may be possible to get two familiars, through the use of the Magical Family lineage, but not otherwise.

At 2nd level (and not at 1st), your sorcerer gets the pick of Animal Companion, Arcane Sense, Item Familiar, OR Summoned Companion. You get to pick ONE and ONLY ONE.



As an update to my campaign, my group has a Nature's Child lineage sorcerer who has gone from level 1 to 6. We've found him... less than optimal, although it may be simply because our group also has a cleric, and he's been learning spells that the cleric can already cast, meaning that as the only arcane caster, his usefulness is VERY limited. Not the fault of the lineage, it's more the fault of the player.

Although, the cleric did just die last campaign... and I'm not sure what class she'll pick next. Maybe she'll go wizard, or pick a different lineage sorcerer, letting the current sorc take the functional place of the cleric, albeit with slightly less utility than the cleric offered. That could work... not sure what'll actually happen though.

The player is quite looking forewards to obtaining the Fey subtype though. Transforming into another kind of creature at 20th level has got to be one of the best features of the class. It's quite an incentive.

 

[Quickleaf]

Great work!
I actually am working on a variant wizard that is designed along these lines, with heavy influence from the Ultimate Wizard. I was thinking about redoing the sorcerer next, but it looks like I won't need to. yah!

So, the question I have is...How would you build an oracle using the lineage sorcerer? That is, someone who has a gift of seeing the future in their blood.

 

[Corlon]

Hmm, I've given this a more thorough readover, and....


The idea is cool, and the whole beginning is cool, but I think it starts falling apart a bit in the later levels.

There are also some balance issues I find with things like the shifter class (you could get something like 7 castings a day of alter self at first level!).


But let's take for example the fire lineage: Very cool first abilities: the ability to learn any fire spell, and the free fire spells along with a fire attack and +10 speed (the attack isn't that great, but it's pretty cool). This balanced by the not being able to learn cold spells and the -2 to saves.

But later on, getting resistance 10 at 8th, immunity at 14, and the fire elemental type at lv 20 just isn't going to keep a person interested in the class it seems...

I don't really know what I'm trying to say, it seems that the lineages are a good idea, but they lack pizzazz.