Sorting armor by effectiveness

[rmcoen]

(Minor Necromancy....)

so what did the "final" list end up as? I liked the conversation in this thread, taking categories of armors from around the world and categorizing them into a smallish number of groups, because I tend to get very granular and suddenly I've got 30ish armors on the table, and it isn't comprehensible to the players. Nor is it easy to remember, in play, that the hobgoblin archers' "ring on mail" has these characteristics, which are different from the bezanted the orcs are wearing, which is different from the "stonescaled mail" on the dwarves... and then every PC has his or her own armor type too. While my brain clamors for more details, more options, "this one trades AC for slash-DR, that one trades movement for crit protection, and this other one is 3 times heavier for +1 AC", my instincts say "The first three are Medium Armor, AC 14; the dwarf thing is Heavy, AC 17".

 

[cavetroll]

(Minor Necromancy....)

so what did the "final" list end up as?

This is the current list, it may change of course when I do more testing. The breastplate and helm bonuses only works with light armor.

I may still add some strength or other requirements to prevent people from running around in full plate like it is no big deal.

 

[GMMichael]

I may still add some strength or other requirements to prevent people from running around in full plate like it is no big deal.

Is that not inherent in the armor's (increasing) weight? Or the "heavy armor" property?

sorry bruv I had a few. apologies to @GMMichael as well.

No worries. Also, sometimes having a few is recommended for using the forums.

 

[cavetroll]

Is that not inherent in the armor's (increasing) weight? Or the "heavy armor" property?

The issue I have is that full plate was supposed to be (from what I read) for on a horse, that its completely impractical for running around dungeons, you would be exhausted quickly and its very hard to put on without help. At least for normal people. For some undead creature its perfect. Or perhaps someone with giant level strength. Neither the base weight or heavy property would prevent anyone from using it without something special. So perhaps you need 17 or 18 strength. 18 would prevent most first level characters from attaining it. Havent decided yet.

 

[Ixal]

The issue I have is that full plate was supposed to be (from what I read) for on a horse, that its completely impractical for running around dungeons, you would be exhausted quickly and its very hard to put on without help. At least for normal people. For some undead creature its perfect. Or perhaps someone with giant level strength. Neither the base weight or heavy property would prevent anyone from using it without something special. So perhaps you need 17 or 18 strength. 18 would prevent most first level characters from attaining it. Havent decided yet.

Needing help to put it on is true. The rest not.
Full Plate armor weights less than modern combat gear and people are perfectly able to run with it or do acrobatics like cartwheels, etc. There are enough videos about that on youtube if you want some examples.
Requiring 17+ Str is nonsense. 12, maybe 13 at most.

Where it would be a problem is when you are climbing (meaning climbing up a cliff, climbing a ladder is fine) and heat as it wold get rather warm after hours of wearing it. Still in most conventional dungeon there would be no reason not to wear plate armor, especially as it is increadibly effective, more than what most RPGs give it credit for in order to maintain balance.
If you do not want players to use full plate for some imagined reason then do not have it in the game because if it exists there are not many reasons not to use it when you can afford it.

 

[TBeholder]

(not D&D specific)
…
RING MAIL

“Not D&D specific”? It comes from flimsy attempts at historical research by Samuel Rush Meyrick who pulled “facts” out of painting techniques and whatnot. The “ring mail” is not a thing that existed, because it simply does not make sense. The rest is his extra-fancy terminology for real things. Fanfic grade stuff. And then Gygax came, saw and made all this nonsense popular.

"Chain-mail" is a mere piece of modern pleonasm; "scale-mail" and still more "plate-mail" stark nonsense. As for Meyrick's proposed classification of mail—"ringed, "single", double-chain, "mascled", "rustred", "trelliced", etc.—it may be dismissed without further ado. His categories, in so far as they were not pure invention, rested wholly on a misinterpretation of the evidence; the passages he cites to support his theories...all refer to what he calls "chain" mail; otherwise MAIL pure and simple.
― F. M. Kelly, "Chain Mail," Apollo (Nov, 1931), via myarmoury.com

That said, maille includes a lot.
You could use "ring mail" stat line in old tables for sparse "Asian" patterns (rings in two distinct positions interlocking at right angle: coplanar and perpendicular, square 4-in-1 or more dense hexagonal 6-in-1; Japanese so gusari and hana gusari respectively). Such mail is rather transparent. It obviously resists slashes by sabers and suchlike well enough, but generally is less effective against bludgeoning (due to low density and greater flexibility) and stabbing than "European" (all rings are locked the same way, tilted, usually 4-in-1; Japanese nanban gusari) patterns. It's also relatively light, very flexible and lets the air through, as such it allows fast movements with less effort and isn't so hot to wear (thus can be actually worn at length in hotter climates). Which is also why it's commonly used for cosplay.
Of course, you may want something more solid over the body parts that don't bend much, but contain vital organs. A lame or a whole row of them can be woven into either pattern. Or have separate maille and plate components in one suit. Which was done a lot.

 

[cavetroll]

The “ring mail” is not a thing that existed,

Right, I removed it from the list after discovering that. Its not on the final list above.

Needing help to put it on is true. The rest not.
Full Plate armor weights less than modern combat gear and people are perfectly able to run with it or do acrobatics like cartwheels, etc. There are enough videos about that on youtube if you want some examples.

I watched this section of a video from I think the most expert of people I could find

he talked about how plate was suitable when you are going direct into battle, like a duel, but for day to day adventuring "full plate harness would really interfere with my ability to do travelling and day to day adventuring. So full plate harness might be great if you have got servants, at least two horses and a baggage train "

But fair enough, I can leave off the strength requirement, it will be expensive enough that nobody can buy it until they are level 3 anyway, so that is fine.

 

[rmcoen]

This is the current list, it may change of course when I do more testing. The breastplate and helm bonuses only works with light armor.

View attachment 155598

I may still add some strength or other requirements to prevent people from running around in full plate like it is no big deal.

Why would you not wear a helm?

Scale Armor = Leather + Breastplate (AC, not cost)
Chain Mail = Leather Brigandine + Breastplate + Helm

These values are higher than Core. Is that intentional?

What's the difference between Brigandine and Leather Brigandine? I must have missed that explanation somewhere.
What's the category for "Gambeson" / "Quilted Jack" / "Arming Coat"? I.e what are the "well-equipped peasants" wearing this season?
What about animal hides (of any type), a staple armor of the druid, ogre, and giant?


STR Min on armor - as opposed to "weight", which applies only to encumbrance, which most people ignore - is to give the STR builds something good over the DEX builds. Speaking as someone playing a STR 10 paladin with Heavy Armor Master, I've been confined to "Ring Mail" (yes, ignore the comments, it's the PHB armor table) because it's the only Heavy armor without a strength min. I was ecstatic when I got a suit of mithril full plate at level 9! With these rules, though, I'd have been in Full Plate at level 3 (as you said), for a 7 point increase in my AC, despite STR 10.


Lastly, tangentially-related to this table... I always thought "ringmail" was what someone else described earlier in the thread: metal rings sewn onto a leather or quilted backing?

 

[cavetroll]

Why would you not wear a helm?

Rogues and Wizards can't, interferes with their core abilities.

 

[cavetroll]

Scale Armor = Leather + Breastplate (AC, not cost)
Chain Mail = Leather Brigandine + Breastplate + Helm

Seems ok to me, I don't really see people mixing and matching that much except to save level 1 gold.