Sparta-like Empire

[ThorneMD]

In light of the upcoming movie I have had recent inspiration to develop a previously undeveloped area of my world after the Spartans. I'm just running into a little problem. How to effectively make them like the Spartans.

Historically, the Spartans did not value formal educaiton above military education until around age 60. This would make wizards (unless they are war wizards) impossible. As a DM, that is not a problem, but what if a player wants to play a Spartan Wizard? Does he basically have to be of old age?

Also, does anyone know the Spartan view on entertainment? What would be the view on Spartan bards or druids or even clerics?

Is my idea of an entire region based on Spartans even possible?

And in terms of everything, I am not looking to be 100% exact, but as close as possible to historical Spartans. Basically, I'm looking to combine real Spartans with the movie and make it playable and fun.

Any help? I know I can't be the only one

 

[starwed]

Keep in mind that, because of that very obsession with military prowess above all else, women had a much greater role in the running of sparta than was the norm in other greek cities

You could run with that, and have the more "educated" classes populated primarily by women.

 

[Kurashu]

Make all spartan "wizards" warmages.

Or at the very least, say that all wizards are specalised in Evocation. Or just say they are sorcerers.

Sorcerer/Warmage would probably be best for a spartan wizard.

As for religion? Favored Souls/Clerics of the god of war.


As for it even being possible? Yes it is entirely. Obviously Sparta existed; it's just a matter of the ratio of classes and roles they play.

 

[Zzyzx]

The helots were the majority of people in the Spartans' area of control. They were like serfs. I bet your druids, bards, and even rogues would come from these "lower class" folk.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

The helots were the majority of people in the Spartans' area of control. They were like serfs. I bet your druids, bards, and even rogues would come from these "lower class" folk.

Nope the helots had to be ruthlessly suppressed, helots shouldn't get any PC levels at all. Historically the Spartans made it one of their rites of passage to publicly cut down potential leaders among the helots for those finishing training and moving on to their first unit. So I can definitely see the pseudo-Spartans keeping a close eye on any helots who look like they might develop a PC level and off them.

I'd play up the difference by having ALL the helots using NPC levels and ALL the Spartans using PC levels. They were elite after all, trained their entire life in practical terms. I can't see any Sparta-Like state not training mages. But they would be tough expected to fight alongside the soldiers and focused exclusively on warfare. So battle sorcerer from UA is a good choice alongside warmage. Warclerics of deities with an outlook similar to Hextor. Maybe paladins of tyranny.

 

[Tonguez]

The Spartans had a very good education system and although most of it was dedicated to physical fitness it also included 'spiritual' training of mind and emotions (ie will saves). That means that besides Fighter Sparta could easily accomodate the militant Cleric and even something like a Warmage.

I'd set these up as Elite Orders dedicated to War gods and serving either as Clerics and/or as members of the dreaded Secret Police (Krypteia) whose role is to suppress the Helots and maintain order amongst the people (divinition and buffering makes sense here)

Women were equally well trained and so women warriors and women wizards makes sense too

Stealth was also a valued trait and young men were expected to go out and survive by stealing (being beaten if they were caught) this means that Rogue fits but should emphasise a militant rogue aspect.

The word Laconic refers to the Spartans so probably no Bards (as they didn't really emphasise music). However they did do dance as part of their physical training...

 

[Celebrim]

How to effectively make them like the Spartans.

Learn as much as you can about the US Marine Corp. Then roll back that warrior culture to a world that is largely misogynist, tribal, heirarchial, superstitious, slaveholding, and brutal and which has largely as its standard of what is virtuous that that is successful.

As a DM, that is not a problem, but what if a player wants to play a Spartan Wizard? Does he basically have to be of old age?

No, but he does basically have to be martial. The problem with playing a Spartan is that Sparta is a true lawful culture, and no living American (at least no American that plays roleplaying games) comes from a true lawful culture. There is no such thing as a Spartan in isolation. You are a Spartan because you belong to Sparta and are subject to the Spartan law. And that law pretty much prevents you from being anything but a Spartan. The closest you can come to in the modern US is to be a member of a brainwashing cult - only its not a cult of personality, its a cult of tradition. Do you understand the problem? In playing a Spartan, the PC is agreeing to give up all his freedom of action. You the DM will tell them what to do, and he is expected by Spartan law to it. And what you will tell the Spartan is not, go out independently with some comrades and without supervision do deeds of daring, accumulate possessions, and so forth. What you will tell the Spartan is to march in formation, to always march in formation, to hold your shield across the Spartan to left, and that's it.

Also, does anyone know the Spartan view on entertainment?

Let's put it this way. What was Sparta's contribution to the arts? Puritans did not despise ornementation as much as the Spartans.

What would be the view on Spartan bards or druids or even clerics?

Druid as a concept is utterly alien to the Greeks. As for bards and clerics, they might have had them, but just as the Marines have the concept 'every marine is first a rifleman', no matter what other job they might have, so the Spartans would have had the concept 'every Spartan is first a hoplite'. For other jobs, the Spartans relied on second (and third) class citizens, and slaves.

Is my idea of an entire region based on Spartans even possible?

Yes. Sparta was a region. It was effectively an Empire.

And in terms of everything, I am not looking to be 100% exact, but as close as possible to historical Spartans. Basically, I'm looking to combine real Spartans with the movie and make it playable and fun.

Any help? I know I can't be the only one

Read the book Gates of Fire, but Steven Pressfield.

 

[Randolpho]

And in terms of everything, I am not looking to be 100% exact, but as close as possible to historical Spartans. Basically, I'm looking to combine real Spartans with the movie and make it playable and fun.

Ok, I obviously haven't seen the movie yet, but I've seen a trailer or two, and I have to say that the movie looks roughly 0% historically accurate -- but 1000% cooler.

I say bugger "historically accurate" and base your new region entirely on the "Sparta" from the movie.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

The spartan way was a "one size fits all" training. You came out a Spartan or you didn't make it out. I don't think an aggresive Spartan Empire would survive in a D&D world, to be honest. They might have some Spartans who later multiclassed to warmage or cleric, but the absolute washout standard would be strength and endurance. They would have no corp of ranged artillery wizards who can't take it at the front lines but can turn the tide of a battle from half a mile back. The individuals who would have made up that corp in the next culture over are dead in Sparta.

To some extent I'm sure they eventually "bred them tougher" in Sparta, but in the main it was attrition based training. They were badass because they killed or expelled from membership everyone who wasn't.

I could see a fantasy Sparta as the producer of the greatest soldiers for hire in the world, judged by physical combat. If you can aford it, you hire a couple of companies, place them carefully. But the region itself survives because of its incredible usefulness to the surounding empires, not because they could actually win a war on their own.

Now if you wanted something that got into the base Spartan philosophy with applicability to the needs of a fantasy world, I can give you something with partially ripped out souls ruthlessly trained in a pychic matrix while their bodies are honed as living weapons, then reintegrated to produce fighter/psion gestalts with the occasional multiple personality throw.

 

[ThorneMD]

Thanks all for the responses.

From my thoughts, but mostly from what you guys have given so far these are my ideas:

All Spartan warriors have at least one fighter level, many have more.
No Spartans are classed as warriors.
Females are able to become all classes, except for barbarians and bards.
The entire society is Lawful with no bend towards evil or good.
Free Toughness Feat at 1st level due to training.
Males can forgo the fighter level and train as a war wizard if shows promise as one.
No druids, barbarians, or bards.

I know I'm missing something (given its rather late and I'm a bit tired) and I'll edit this at some point soon, but to explain. I don't want too many restrictions on classes as then no one will want to play a Spartan. I doubt I'm going to make it super hardcore in that you are ruled by the DM, but samurai do exist in D&D worlds so a quasi-Spartan can as well I believe. Would a typical army wipe these guys out?