Specific effects of hiding?

[Caliban]

And would any of you actually play it that way?

I'm not really interested in technicalities that arise due to secondary rules text not being updated to consider a primary rule change in the same book. That doesn't really help anyone.

 

[Sejs]

If you could see him with a good Spot check, is he not visually detectable?

Let's say I could Spot him with a roll of 15, and I roll a 5. The fact that he could be seen but has not been means he is visually detectable, but visually undetected.

So, wait, let me see if I follow you here...

The Invisibility spell grants you a bonus to your hide checks, +40 if not moving, +20 if you are.

Invisibility is defined as 'visually undetectable', but by granting a hide bonus can be seen through theoretically by a sufficiently high spot check.

Therefor Invisibility fails to meet its own definition, making it... what?

:\

 

[Hypersmurf]

Invisibility is defined as 'visually undetectable', but by granting a hide bonus can be seen through theoretically by a sufficiently high spot check.

It can't be 'seen through'.

From the DMG: "Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision."

From the same section: "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack."

You can notice the presence, but you still can't see them - they're invisible. It's not vision you're using to Spot them, since they're undetectable by vision.

If someone is trying to hide, but you beat their Hide check with your Spot check, then you can see them. So they're not visually undetectable, and hence not invisible.

-Hyp.

 

[melkorspawn]

So, HiPS could possibly be stronger than invisibility? Because detecting invisibility is a DC 20 spot check and HiPS is an opposed roll?

 

[Infiniti2000]

If someone is trying to hide, but you beat their Hide check with your Spot check, then you can see them. So they're not visually undetectable, and hence not invisible.

If you don't beat their Hide check, then you can't see them and they're visually undetectable. What's the confusion? Being visually undetectable at this moment in time does not make someone visually undetectable forever. I don't understand why you're trying to make that unreasonable leap in logic, but maybe I'm making a wrong inference.

"Two creatures can see each other if they have line of sight to each other."

Since we know that you don't have line of sight, they you can't see the other person. Isn't that equivalent to saying visually undetectable at this moment in time?

 

[Deset Gled]

FWIW, I have come to believe that the rules about hiding are intentionally vague. Simply put, the number of circumstances that you have to cover with the hide skill are too broad to be covered by a simple mechanic. The DM should be making intelligent decisions about hiding base on individual circumstances.

 

[billd91]

If you don't beat their Hide check, then you can't see them and they're visually undetectable. What's the confusion? Being visually undetectable at this moment in time does not make someone visually undetectable forever. I don't understand why you're trying to make that unreasonable leap in logic, but maybe I'm making a wrong inference.

"Two creatures can see each other if they have line of sight to each other."

Since we know that you don't have line of sight, they you can't see the other person. Isn't that equivalent to saying visually undetectable at this moment in time?

Hear! Hear! I agree completely. Someone who fails to equal or beat the hide check cannot visually detect the hiding character. He's proven that with his spot check. Hence, the hidden character is, to the person who failed the spot check, invisible.

May I also point out that an invisible character is not visibly undetectable if the observer is using see invisibility. So, the question about being visually undetectable depends on context and not on the definition of the invisibility spell. A hidden character is visually undetectable if the observer fails a spot roll. An character using an invisibility power is visually undetectable if the observer doesn't have see invisibility or some other power that allows them to see invisible characters.

By the way, that -20 penalty for sniping should, as I read the rules, apply AFTER that first attack is made so that the character remains hidden. If the sniper succeeds with the hide check (assuming he's really good at it, has impressive circumstance modifiers, or his targets are really unperceptive), he continues to be invisible to the target.

 

[frankthedm]

And would any of you actually play it that way?

I'm not really interested in technicalities that arise due to secondary rules text not being updated to consider a primary rule change in the same book. That doesn't really help anyone.

What is wrong with following the rules for sneak attack. I see a lot of players try and work around the rules for the way it works, often cheating by 'conveniently forgetting’ A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

What 'update' are you refering to?
3.0 Hide (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: The character's Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see the character. The character can move up to one-half normal speed and hide at no penalty. At more than one-half and up to the full speed, the character suffers a –5 penalty. It's practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while running or charging.

Larger and smaller creatures get size bonuses and size penalties on Hide checks: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.

If people are observing the character, even casually, the character can't hide. The character can run around a corner or something so that the character is out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where the character went. If the character's observers are momentarily distracted (as by a Bluff check; see below), though, the character can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from the character, the character can attempt a Hide check if the character can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank the character has in Hide.) This check, however, is at –10 because the character has to move fast.

Creating a Diversion to Hide: The character can use Bluff to help the character hide. A successful Bluff check can give the character the momentary diversion the character needs to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of the character.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

If you don't beat their Hide check, then you can't see them and they're visually undetectable.

Well, they aren't visually undetectable. They're visually undetected.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Well, they aren't visually undetectable. They're visually undetected.

Actually, they're both.