Speculation about interaction of AC and reflex defence

[Riley]

I just failed the "PLEASE! Check if a similar 4e thread exists before posting a new one" test and posted this elsewhere. Pretty similar to Gloombunny's suggestion above, with one addition.

Here's a very simple system that would seem to fit 4e design goals (keep it simple, don't have special rules, and make AC scale without the need for magic items):

• Touch AC = Reflex Defense
• AC = Reflex Defense + Armor bonus
• And, to account for the negative effect of armor on one's ability to dodge things: a reflex defense penalty. That is, Plate Armor has a +8 AC bonus, but a -3 Reflex Defense penalty.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I just failed the "PLEASE! Check if a similar 4e thread exists before posting a new one" test and posted this elsewhere. Pretty similar to Gloombunny's suggestion above, with one addition.

I've merged the threads.

CHeers

 

[Plane Sailing]

You'll still run into that, albeit rarely. If your attack score + 20 = the target's AC exactly, then when you attack said target, you'll only hit on a 20 -- but that would equal the target's AC, so you'd critical.

The only way to not have that effect is with a confirmation roll of some sort.

No, either say that if a 20 would be a hit without the special rule of 'a 20 is automatically a hit' then it is a critical, or say that if you need a 19 or less to hit and roll a 20 it is a critical. It doesn't really matter which.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Which fits thematically, no?

It does fit for the agile rogue or the swashbuckler fighter. I just wonder if it is too much of a change for most players.

Now lets look at the flip side of this. You have the low-level fighter with his chain mail armor. He wades into combat and relies on his armor to keep him safe. As he increases in level, and therefore in skill, he gets better at avoiding blows from his opponents, but as long as that improvement is less than the defense his armor offers, it makes no difference on a practical level. His improved skill cannot turn a penetrating strike into a glancing blow.

Also I think this would make the Reflex defense the king of attributes, and everybody would be striving to improve this one area. Reflex defense, by making you harder to hit, can do everything AC does, and improve your defense against traps, spells and other effects that target Reflex. AC eventually becomes pointless, unless it can be improved much faster and/or at less cost than Reflex.

On the other hand, this mechanic could finally settle once and for all the idea of chainmail bikinis, Barbarian loincloths and the other impractical outifts portrayed in fantasy artwork - they can be worn because they are only for looks.

 

[Plane Sailing]

My ideal solution wouldn't be considered for D&D, but I'd like to see armour as DR and attacks made against Reflex defence; end of story.

It won't happen in the core rules, but it is what I'd like to see. I'll probably have a look at playtesting something like that once the rules come out anyway

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

My ideal solution wouldn't be considered for D&D, but I'd like to see armour as DR and attacks made against Reflex defence; end of story.

It won't happen in the core rules, but it is what I'd like to see. I'll probably have a look at playtesting something like that once the rules come out anyway

I agree with you completely. A hit should be contact with a weapon. Armor should protect you from that contact by reducing the hurt that contact puts on you. A critical hit bypasses the armor's DR simulating the weapon finding a weak point.

Oh well, I guess 4e won't be perfect like we all thought

 

[GreatLemur]

My ideal solution wouldn't be considered for D&D, but I'd like to see armour as DR and attacks made against Reflex defence; end of story.

Yep. Quoted for agreement. Considering how much support this direction seems to have in the community, I'm pretty shocked that AC is apparently not changing in any real way.

 

[JVisgaitis]

Considering how much support this direction seems to have in the community, I'm pretty shocked that AC is apparently not changing in any real way.

I was thinking the same thing myself...

 

[Malhost Zormaeril]

The problem with Armour as DR, as has been told before by others, is that it's impossible to make an armour DR value that is marginally effective against a Dragon and yet still marginally vulnerable to a longsword. Unless Wizards plays at absorbing percentages of damage (most of the D&D playing public would balk at this level of maths for every single attack) or regular attacks have some interface to the equipment-destroying rules built in (so that armour can eventually be destroyed, which is not something most players would enjoy) Armour as DR isn't feasible.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

The problem with Armour as DR, as has been told before by others, is that it's impossible to make an armour DR value that is marginally effective against a Dragon and yet still marginally vulnerable to a longsword. Unless Wizards plays at absorbing percentages of damage (most of the D&D playing public would balk at this level of maths for every single attack) or regular attacks have some interface to the equipment-destroying rules built in (so that armour can eventually be destroyed, which is not something most players would enjoy) Armour as DR isn't feasible.

I think it can be feasible, especially if in 4e higher level PCs dole out more damage on a single attack, as seems to be indicated so far.

Make armor be a DR factor (I'm making this up as I go here, no idea if this would be the ideal solution). Leather armor is worth 2 points of DR, Chainmail 4, full plate 8. This number is then multiplied by 1/2 character level (round up). This offers a scaling level of protection as the damage increases from tougher creatures. It won't offer squat for protection to a 1st level fighter against an adult dragon, but on a 10th level PC, chainmail would knock off 20 points of damage after the dragon manages to score a hit. Because the evil 10th level fighter would be doling out more damage than just 1d8+Str from his longsword, the DR is not so great that a longsword won't be able to hurt you.

Add to that a rule that a critical hit bypasses DR, and even the lowly guard can manage to hit the 10th level fighter in full plate and do some damage - as much damage as he could do rolling a natural 20 in previous editions.