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Speculation about "the feelz" of D&D 4th Edition

A 4E powered Supers game would probably work passingly well, though the combat would be fairly involved still, somewhat limiting the audience to the tactical crowd.

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Well, tactically involved supers games are a pretty well-trodden path. I doubt it would be seen as some radical departure. Actually I've seen several character sheets reflavored as classic superheroes. It is certainly not much of a stretch. I think that conceptually it would also free the game of the straightjacket of being seen as D&D, which seemed to seriously limit what authors did in adventure terms. I've always talked about 'Indiana Jones' being the exemplar of a 4e adventure, but any Batman comic would do as well.
 

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There's another oft-repeated edition war talking point that doesn't stand up to the least scrutiny.
There's not one certain play style that's supported to the exclusion of others in 4e. Quite the contrary, it opened up playstyles the game couldn't handle well in the past (and, 5e hasn't gotten around to, yet, FWTW), and didn't exactly sacrifice play styles in the process.

The closest examples would be certain metagame approaches getting reigned in. It did reduce (not eliminate) the rewards for system mastery and generally made the game better-balanced, so if a 'style' turned on leveraging some broken sub-system (or gaming the DM) it might have been curtailed in effectiveness.

Aside from that, it didn't work at all well for 1:1 PvP, if you want to consider that a style.

4e certainly doesn't do a lot of favors for the old style procedural dungeon crawl. There's no real exploration rules, or at least no FRAMEWORK to them (skills work fine for adjudicating the actual actions characters take, but there's no time structure and thus no resource drain or anything like wandering monsters possible, per-se). While traps and such exist, they aren't exactly described as being of the SOD variety (and actually you often didn't even GET a save, you just guessed wrong and you were ganked). You could go all 4th Core and introduce death traps and whatnot, but you'd really have to lean on older edition material to fill in the rest. Even the equipment lists are somewhat rudimentary. MME gave us a version of hirelings and henchmen, but without the instantly lethal and adverse nature of combat its not going to be the same.

So, there is THAT genre to which 4e is at least not addressed. You probably COULD reproduce the experience of delving into a sheet of geomorphs with the rooms numbered and keyed full of every crazy monster in the book, but the combats probably won't work out well. You'd have to use all level+5 monsters to get the feel, which would be 'interesting' at the very least!
 

Well, my groups style was not helped, and hampered at the time; 4E could be used, in theory, for less tactics focused styles, but not easily or with much help from the books. We were not big optimizers, to say the least; more RP with bouts of extreme and sudden violence. Not well supported by the tactical intricacies of the new edition, and we tried. Could it be tuned down? Sure, but we could also just keep using older books, which was way easier, no drama. I ain't no edition warrior, I think 4E does it's thing well, it just ain't my thing: but how that came to be, and the whole kerfluffle around it, is fascinating.

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4e, with its SCs and story-telling and action-adventure focus actually works QUITE well for intrigue-filled noire sort of things. Particularly something like a sort of Three Musketeers kind of story with a lot of non-combat 'stuff' interspersed with some dramatic action and fights.

For example, 4e caters WELL to something like making a whole party of clever, stealthy, witty, adventurers. ANY class can pretty well be built in that sort of mold. Or likewise to making a party of nothing but 'barbarians', or whatever. This kind of thing was always difficult to achieve in previous editions. 3.5 kinda got close, but the skill system really didn't do it well, and it wasn't as easy to get level 1-3 right, you kinda had to start at level 4 really. 4e could pull it from level 1, though it really helped to have a decent collection of books, or DDI.
 


Parmandur

Book-Friend
Sure, none.

Doesn't mean you can't do it.

I remember seeing the X-men done as Sorcerers...

...3.5 sorcerers.
*shrug* you may see it as "none," but the natural language probably played a key role for people to visualize in TotM: thinking on it, watching Chris Perkins DM Acquisitions, Inc. (or any of the other Twitch or other webcast games that I have seen) it plays exactly the way my college group did? Really not hard.

Now, in the D&D Adventure board game, where there is no DM, the 4E style rules work like a charm.

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pemerton

Legend
Well, 5E has the same support for TotM that previous editions had
To be honest, I don't see the difference from 4e. A 5' push is a 5' push whethere delivered by a 4e or 5e character, and the question of whether it moves the character out of the radius of the fireball spell doesn't change.

Nothing about 5e seems to make TotM straightforward in a fashion that is different from 4e.

walls of abilities written in gamey jargon just don't float my boat.
I do actually read the spell descriptions for fun; there's good stuff in there!
Speaking for myself, again I don't see the difference. When I think of spell descriptions I think of AD&D, which is full of jargon (segments, rounds and turns as measures of time; inches (as in gameboard inches) as measures of distance; levels as measures of spell power; damage dice as measures of attack potency; etc); and I don't find 5e to be all that different (casting times are measured in actions; damage is still measured in dice; spell power is still measure in levels; etc).

It was indeed a mechanical departure on most levels and in some of them, massively so. There is little useful purpose served by getting into counterpoint with this I think - it is in my opinion entirely self evident.
Not remotely.

PCs are defined by the same 6 stats, with the same bonus/penalty chart as 3E; they have feats and skills, like 3E; the feats, like those in 3E, provide various modest tweaks; the skills, like in 5e, provide a flat bonus; the skill list is very similar to 5e's which makes it also pretty similar to 3.5 but for not having craft, perform or profession, and fewer knowledge skills.

The presentation of races is almost identical to 3E and 5e - stat mod, other mechanical abilities inlcuding skill benefits and vision.

Combat is based around rolling a d20 and adding bonuses to hit AC (or another similar defence), with damage being determined via polyhedral dice rolls and many attacks also inflicting debuffs.

The text for fireball in 4e is very similar to that for fireball in Moldvay Basic. That's not a coincidence.

Well, my groups style was not helped, and hampered at the time; 4E could be used, in theory, for less tactics focused styles, but not easily or with much help from the books. We were not big optimizers, to say the least
An interesting thing about 4e is that optimising is not that important, because the number of trap/dud choices is pretty modest.

The 4E MM was an abomination on every level, due to choices made by its lead designer.
This is one thing in respect of which I think I'm an outlier - I really like the MM! (Yes, the damage needs scaling up for non-Heroic tier monsters, but that's normally pretty straightforward maths.) I've had a lot of good encounters using its undead, its goblins, its young black dragon, its gnomes.

Of course it's not the only 4e monster book I've used, but I've used it a lot.

Another consideration to the "feels" of 4E versus other editions: the books were set up as reference manuals without a lot of fun reading potential. See the 4E MM versus the 5E one, more stats, less flavor. That focus on everything feeding into tactical, systematically complete systems was a somewhat new take, that did not fit everyone's tastes.
Maybe it's all the years I spent with Rolemaster, which favours one line spell descriptions (like Moldvay Basic but more concise) and one-paragraph monster descriptions (ditto), that have made me prefer the "less is more" approach to flavour text. I tend to find it stodgy and off-putting, especially - as too often seems to be the case - it contains self-contradictions or sits oddly with the stats of the game element in question.

When I read the 4e MM, it makes me imagine events in play. Which encourages me to use its monsters in my game. I think that's a good thing in a Monster Manual, and I like the way it orients me towards play rather than backstory.

(A similar sort of view is expressed by [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] in post 42 upthread.)
 

pemerton

Legend
Even now I can pride myself with "playing this very niche rpg that was waaaay ahead of its time, you probably never heard of it" while I stroke gently over my hipster/grognard beard and tell my audience about the nuanced interplay between grid based miniature play and high octane adventure.
4e really is the closest to indie-style RPGing that D&D has come.

The closest 5e gets is the Inspiration sub-system, but that seems to be widely though not uniformly ignored or at least downplayed.

The modern OSR sometimes heads in that direction as well, but I tend to feel that to the extent that it does, it's not really a revival as opposed to an anachronistic reimagining. (I would put Torchbearer in this category also.)
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
To be honest, I don't see the difference from 4e. A 5' push is a 5' push whethere delivered by a 4e or 5e character, and the question of whether it moves the character out of the radius of the fireball spell doesn't change.

Nothing about 5e seems to make TotM straightforward in a fashion that is different from 4e.


Speaking for myself, again I don't see the difference. When I think of spell descriptions I think of AD&D, which is full of jargon (segments, rounds and turns as measures of time; inches (as in gameboard inches) as measures of distance; levels as measures of spell power; damage dice as measures of attack potency; etc); and I don't find 5e to be all that different (casting times are measured in actions; damage is still measured in dice; spell power is still measure in levels; etc).

Not remotely.

PCs are defined by the same 6 stats, with the same bonus/penalty chart as 3E; they have feats and skills, like 3E; the feats, like those in 3E, provide various modest tweaks; the skills, like in 5e, provide a flat bonus; the skill list is very similar to 5e's which makes it also pretty similar to 3.5 but for not having craft, perform or profession, and fewer knowledge skills.

The presentation of races is almost identical to 3E and 5e - stat mod, other mechanical abilities inlcuding skill benefits and vision.

Combat is based around rolling a d20 and adding bonuses to hit AC (or another similar defence), with damage being determined via polyhedral dice rolls and many attacks also inflicting debuffs.

The text for fireball in 4e is very similar to that for fireball in Moldvay Basic. That's not a coincidence.

An interesting thing about 4e is that optimising is not that important, because the number of trap/dud choices is pretty modest.

This is one thing in respect of which I think I'm an outlier - I really like the MM! (Yes, the damage needs scaling up for non-Heroic tier monsters, but that's normally pretty straightforward maths.) I've had a lot of good encounters using its undead, its goblins, its young black dragon, its gnomes.

Of course it's not the only 4e monster book I've used, but I've used it a lot.

Maybe it's all the years I spent with Rolemaster, which favours one line spell descriptions (like Moldvay Basic but more concise) and one-paragraph monster descriptions (ditto), that have made me prefer the "less is more" approach to flavour text. I tend to find it stodgy and off-putting, especially - as too often seems to be the case - it contains self-contradictions or sits oddly with the stats of the game element in question.

When I read the 4e MM, it makes me imagine events in play. Which encourages me to use its monsters in my game. I think that's a good thing in a Monster Manual, and I like the way it orients me towards play rather than backstory.

(A similar sort of view is expressed by [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] in post 42 upthread.)
Well, different things are entertaining and inspiring to various temperaments, for sure. The 5E books get my juices flowing, the 4E presentation reeeaally didn't. Presentation can be as important as content! Arguably 5E kept a lot of stuff (at-will, short, long rest abilities have AEDU remnants...), but changed the way the content was delivered so as to be more generally palatable.

I mean, now my 5E homies use a battlemat most of the time (no necessary for every combat, though); don't need it, really, my college 3.x group was mode loose on that point (didn't use a table, just sat around a living room talking, ala Critical Role).

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Caliburn101

Explorer
Quotes from Mike Mearls that should be read by anyone claiming 4th Edition was just another step in the evolution of D&D and not a departure with significant negative impact - from the horses' mouth, without editing or further ado;

"Look, no one at Wizards ever woke up one day and said 'Let's get rid of all of our fans and replace them.' That was never the intent," Mearls said. "With 4th Edition, there were good intentions. We are D&D fans. We want D&D to be the best roleplaying game it can be. We're always open to change, to reacting to what people say."

“If you are a disgruntled D&D fan, there’s nothing I can say to you that undoes whatever happened two years ago or a year ago that made you disgruntled – but what I can do, what’s within my power, is that going forward, I can make products, I can design game material, I can listen to what you’re saying, and I can do what I can do with design to make you happy again; to get back to that core of what makes D&D, D&D; to what made people fall in love with it the first time, whether it was the Red Box in ’83, the original three booklets back in ’74 or ’75 or even 3rd Edition in 2004, whenever that happened, to get back to what drew you into D&D in the first place and give that back to you.”

4th Edition fans can credibly defend the play experience, or how much they enjoy it - the system caters for a certain style of play, was well supported and played by many.

But the idea that it wasn't a significant departure that split the D&D gaming population, was a natural evolution (or whatever label is used to give it high water-mark D&D credentials) is not shared by the game's designers, the company that published it or the majority of the current D&D gaming community.

As a credible sample poll, check out Rolld20 numbers on how many are playing each edition for the straw poll on this - or indeed how many are still playing Pathfinder compared to 4th Edition right now.

Let's stop pretending Mike and WotC didn't know what they were talking about when they collectively stated that they needed to get back to the core of what makes D&D, D&D.

Cherry pick all the specific rules that were the same or similar individually - and then look at the rules on Minions and understand this was a major departure, and a great poster child for the fundamental differences between D&D as was, and is, and 4th Edition.

Rolling a polyhedral does not D&D make...

Nor indeed does 4th Edition a bad game make - it had it's strengths and genuinely positive mechanics and flavour (I especially liked the Primordial stuff and the birth of the Abyss for instance...) but being the chip off the block offspring of D&D before, or a significant spiritual ancestor of 5th?

Short and Long rest plus a few other minutiae - these could have come from the development of 5th from 3.5 with a bit of thought, and not via the off-road route taken via 4th.

This thread was and is about the 'feelz' of 4th Edition, and it had a very different feel indeed - enough to create the history and the particularly polarised battles of the 'Edition Wars' thereafter.

I would argue that in the face of the events following the release of 4th, it is ultimately fruitless to claim that the way it played wasn't largely responsible.
 
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Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
Quotes from Mike Mearls that should be read by anyone claiming 4th Edition was just another step in the evolution of D&D and not a departure with significant negative impact - from the horses' mouth, without editing or further ado (snip)

That's nice. He has an opinion. He's also the designer who did more to botch 4E than any other. Look at his credits: Keep on the Shadowfell, Pyramid of Shadow, Heroes of Shadow. Yep, I included that last one because, while every other 4E designer got better at the system, he arguably got worse.

I also remember a seminar he and Chris Perkins did at Pax discussing DMing. Chris was asked about his current campaigns and he mentioned briefly about Iomandra. He only needed to mention that briefly because his WotC blog was full of additional details as was that tremendous series he authored, the DM's Experience.

By contrast Mike had this to say: I'm not running a campaign now. (It's no wonder he never really grokked 4E.) That and his list of credits is really all you have to know about his opinions about 4E.

That said, you would be misrepresenting my opinions if you claimed or implied or even inferred that I didn't think that 4E was perceived as being very different. I agree with that but, looking at D&D holistically (there's that word again) over the decades I have been playing, I can see the natural evolution (I'm sticking with that phrase) over the editions and the design choices made. But while I see the natural evolution, that's irrelevant in the face of subjective taste.

4E failed the subjective taste test. That I do agree. But, objectively, it's still very much an edition of D&D.
 

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