Speculation about "the feelz" of D&D 4th Edition

[Nagol]

Nod. Particularly with regard to balance problems (and intentional rewards for system mastery), which were features if you leveraged them to get the superior character, and bugs if you were playing the Tier 6 class because the concept appealed to you (or just looking at the game theoretically, for that matter).

Then there's 'fee,' the original topic. If something provides a desired 'feel' even if it has not positive function, it's a feature. If a bug sticks with the game for 30 years, it's become part of the feelz....

Which is how all those bovines become consecrated in the first place; they become associated with the feelz. Sending them to the slaughterhouse had best be done for clearly explained and obviously beneficial reasons because you are going to affect the feel for everyone in addition to ticking off anyone with grognard tendencies.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Fixes are only fixes if they address something viewed as a buf rather than a feature: and different people have different perspectives on which is which. 4E solved features of D&D for me, which was a bug to my viewpoint.

Miniatures & such...it is not surprising that folks playing the tactical game liked then improvement of that: but we were not all doing that, even 3.x cadre folks.

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My feeling is there are 2 classes of things that 4e did WRT 3.x.

Some things fall into the category of "we just wanted to create a somewhat different game" which could potentially be for a lot of reasons, such as a desire to shape D&D in a unique way, a perception that such a change was a 'fix' to something, simple mistake in design or execution, unintended side-effect of other changes, desire to conform to newer trends in market, etc etc etc.

Other things fall into the "something specific is actually not meeting our product needs with 3.5". There are actually a BUNCH of these, IMHO. 3.x classes didn't work very well. It proved exceedingly difficult to create workable usable classes. 3.x's magic system produced a very specific sort of play, and altering it generally required MAJOR surgery. Some types of play were heavily disfavored. The skill system was borked, and this lead to great difficulty trying to make viable non-combat subsystems. MCing and PrCs badly undermined the class system concept. Trap options were actually MOST of the possible options in the game. Etc.

Honestly, I think 4e actually arose out of a desire to make a core system that would better accommodate 3rd party material of high quality. MANY of its features seem to be designed deliberately to lead developers to make good choices. As a result a VERY high percentage of 4e material is of high quality. Even the 'bad stuff' like HoS is still measurably better than almost any 3.5 material that was ever published in mechanical terms.

None of this is intended to be a knock against 3.x in terms of being the game people want to play, or saying it is 'bad' in some fanciful 'objective' way, etc. It DID have certain very specific quirks, strong ones. I think developers were often frustrated by it.

One of the terrible ironies of 4e is that it was ideally suited to be OGLed and form the basis of a whole series of variations and additions, yet WotC chose to eschew that opportunity, further stunting the game's acceptance and popularity with a very key group of thought leaders, 3rd party developers (who also tend to be pretty active in terms of playing and writing about RPGs).

 

[Parmandur]

My feeling is there are 2 classes of things that 4e did WRT 3.x.

Some things fall into the category of "we just wanted to create a somewhat different game" which could potentially be for a lot of reasons, such as a desire to shape D&D in a unique way, a perception that such a change was a 'fix' to something, simple mistake in design or execution, unintended side-effect of other changes, desire to conform to newer trends in market, etc etc etc.

Other things fall into the "something specific is actually not meeting our product needs with 3.5". There are actually a BUNCH of these, IMHO. 3.x classes didn't work very well. It proved exceedingly difficult to create workable usable classes. 3.x's magic system produced a very specific sort of play, and altering it generally required MAJOR surgery. Some types of play were heavily disfavored. The skill system was borked, and this lead to great difficulty trying to make viable non-combat subsystems. MCing and PrCs badly undermined the class system concept. Trap options were actually MOST of the possible options in the game. Etc.

Honestly, I think 4e actually arose out of a desire to make a core system that would better accommodate 3rd party material of high quality. MANY of its features seem to be designed deliberately to lead developers to make good choices. As a result a VERY high percentage of 4e material is of high quality. Even the 'bad stuff' like HoS is still measurably better than almost any 3.5 material that was ever published in mechanical terms.

None of this is intended to be a knock against 3.x in terms of being the game people want to play, or saying it is 'bad' in some fanciful 'objective' way, etc. It DID have certain very specific quirks, strong ones. I think developers were often frustrated by it.

One of the terrible ironies of 4e is that it was ideally suited to be OGLed and form the basis of a whole series of variations and additions, yet WotC chose to eschew that opportunity, further stunting the game's acceptance and popularity with a very key group of thought leaders, 3rd party developers (who also tend to be pretty active in terms of playing and writing about RPGs).

Several elements going on for sure:

1. Seeing "D&D Tactics" as the next mechanical move, which alienated some people.

2. Moving away from pseudo-Greyhawk as the base setting, which alienated another group of people.

3. Blowing up the Forgotten Realms to try and interest new fans, which ticked off a very large number of their core fans.

4. Blowing the third party thing entirely, which alienated a lot of people and business partners.

5. Unprofessional customer communications habits for WotC staff: I mean, the things they said while arguing with people being wrong on the Internet were astounding: one thing for us to engage our sub-hobby here, but they need to be more pro about it.

Probably could have gotten away with one of those things; bit they did what they could to alienate as diverse a cross-section if customers as possible...

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[MwaO]

It certainly seemed like 4e launched into a huge headwind. The whole direction the market wanted to go right then was totally opposite, PF gave 3.5 fans an out, and WotC seemed incapable of consistently marketing what they had. Encounters was a good solid program for what it did, but the play it engendered was pretty limited, as you'd expect for the format. Something like AL would have been a good idea.

Which is basically what Living Forgotten Realms morphed into after year 2. The magic items are bit different, but basic concept is the same.

I think the murder-suicide had a much, much larger impact on 4e than one might initially think. WotC always has a relatively small team working on D&D. That one of their own went out and killed his wife and then himself *right at launch* is the kind of thing where the whole department had to be thinking about it. Not that it necessarily made any one individual mess up, but that's the kind of thing where inertia can create problems.

Forgot something - year 2 Living Forgotten Realms had some huge time delays, right when PF was starting up, and the admins literally weren't allowed to tell anyone what was going on. When a simple, "Hey, we've decided there's too much content, we want to improve it, we just haven't figured out how it is going to happen. It should resolve in 2 months. Let us know if you have a convention upcoming so we can prioritize you."

Instead, there was almost zero communication. Right as a competitor was building up steam.

 

[cavalier973]

Think Wesley vs Inigo

Wait...the Man in Black is WESLEY????

Spoilers, dude!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Which is basically what Living Forgotten Realms morphed into after year 2. The magic items are bit different, but basic concept is the same.

I think the murder-suicide had a much, much larger impact on 4e than one might initially think. WotC always has a relatively small team working on D&D. That one of their own went out and killed his wife and then himself *right at launch* is the kind of thing where the whole department had to be thinking about it. Not that it necessarily made any one individual mess up, but that's the kind of thing where inertia can create problems.

Forgot something - year 2 Living Forgotten Realms had some huge time delays, right when PF was starting up, and the admins literally weren't allowed to tell anyone what was going on. When a simple, "Hey, we've decided there's too much content, we want to improve it, we just haven't figured out how it is going to happen. It should resolve in 2 months. Let us know if you have a convention upcoming so we can prioritize you."

Instead, there was almost zero communication. Right as a competitor was building up steam.

Certainly possible. Obviously for people that didn't even follow WotC closely at all the whole thing was not even visible. However, I would note, as a highly accomplished and one might even say pioneering, member of the web application development and 'digital' community, the statements and expectations made by WotC were wholly unrealistic and almost eye-rolling in their sheer scope and the obviousness of the gulf between their perception of their resources and what they could accomplish. No team could have made that good. It was CLEARLY doomed, and anyone wise to the viability of projects could smell its inevitable demise from 4000 miles distance.

I don't even think their vision was particularly a good one, even had they pulled it off. As described the UX of their putative online platform, to the extent that is was ever even articulated, seemed to be more daydream than serious analysis of what would work in a business sense. Even the DDI that eventually DID result, while it was far from insubstantial, didn't clearly produce good business results, nor even contribute to furthering D&D. The obvious proof of this being its utter disappearance with the release of 5e.

 

[The Fighter-Cricket]

Ah, 4E, my beloved friend, we have been through stormy times. But I rest easy now that the interest in being mean to you passed on to other targets. Even now I can pride myself with "playing this very niche rpg that was waaaay ahead of its time, you probably never heard of it" while I stroke gently over my hipster/grognard beard and tell my audience about the nuanced interplay between grid based miniature play and high octane adventure.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Honestly, I think 4e actually arose out of a desire to make a core system that would better accommodate 3rd party material of high quality.

Wow, not the impression I got, at least, not from the way WotC's first cut of the GSL seemed designed to give them a killswitch with which to ruin an 3pp that stepped out of line. It obviously didn't go over, and they had to revise it, but it looked like bridge-burning, to me. Burning the bridge /as you're crossing it/, that is.

MANY of its features seem to be designed deliberately to lead developers to make good choices. As a result a VERY high percentage of 4e material is of high quality.

True, but in-house developers need that kind of discipline every bit as much as 3pps.

Even the 'bad stuff' like HoS is still measurably better than almost any 3.5 material that was ever published in mechanical terms.

Now you're just exaggerating.

None of this is intended to be a knock against 3.x in terms of being the game people want to play, or saying it is 'bad' in some fanciful 'objective' way, etc.

Nothing 'fanciful' about it, no. ;P

One of the terrible ironies of 4e is that it was ideally suited to be OGLed and form the basis of a whole series of variations and additions, yet WotC chose to eschew that opportunity

So true. After a first read of the 4e PH, I was thinking 'wow, d20 modern is going to be sooo much better, now.'
Nope. Not that Ultramodern wasn't good, but there could have been so much more if they'd let the system loose. Some of the ways in which 4e didn't quite have the 'D&D feelz' actually made it ideally suited for other genres, especially cinematic/action takes on them.

 

[Parmandur]

Wow, not the impression I got, at least, not from the way WotC's first cut of the GSL seemed designed to give them a killswitch with which to ruin an 3pp that stepped out of line. It obviously didn't go over, and they had to revise it, but it looked like bridge-burning, to me. Burning the bridge /as you're crossing it/, that is.

True, but in-house developers need that kind of discipline every bit as much as 3pps. Now you're just exaggerating.

Nothing 'fanciful' about it, no. ;P

So true. After a first read of the 4e PH, I was thinking 'wow, d20 modern is going to be sooo much better, now.'
Nope. Not that Ultramodern wasn't good, but there could have been so much more if they'd let the system loose. Some of the ways in which 4e didn't quite have the 'D&D feelz' actually made it ideally suited for other genres, especially cinematic/action takes on them.

A 4E powered Supers game would probably work passingly well, though the combat would be fairly involved still, somewhat limiting the audience to the tactical crowd.

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[Tony Vargas]

A 4E powered Supers game would probably work...

Sure. I mean, 'powers,' and everything. ;P

1. Seeing "D&D Tactics" as the next mechanical move, which alienated some people.

though the combat would be fairly involved still, somewhat limiting the audience to the tactical crowd.

"D&D Tactics" has been a thing as long as there's been D&D, it's genesis was as a wargame. 2e C&T took the tactical aspect to new heights. 3.x built directly on that, and PF didn't exactly change that (CMB/CMD were a nice incremental improvement, in fact).

In that area, 4e was just a refinement. It set out to fix the 'static' problem that plagued 3e tactical combat and succeeded. A minor thing, but a wholly positive one, and certainly not what touched off the edition war.