Spelljammer Spelljammer: A 5E Fan Conversion

[Staffan]

I would have every helm give a low baseline speed/SR (possibly modified by ship size - so a strong helm on a Dragonfly would give a faster speed than the same helm on a Hammership), and not have them necessarily drain spells. However, a caster seated on a helm can channel a spell into a short-term speed boost. That way, expending spells to power your helm becomes something cool the caster can do, rather than a necessity that leaves the caster useless.

As for divine magic, both 3e and 5e have embraced the idea that divine casters get to cast their spells even on other planes. In AD&D, priests had a number of restrictions when it came to planar travel - in addition to the previous restriction to 2nd level spells or lower, they were also penalized when on non-Prime planes based on the distance to their patron's home plane (-1 level per plane in between - so a priest of Zeus adventuring in the Abyss would have -3 levels because of Ysgard, Limbo, and Pandemonium). These restrictions were abolished in 3e, and have been kept abolished in 5e, because they're no fun.

I would however restrict spells that required actual planar communication/travel in the Phlogiston. No summoning, no teleport, no commune.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Decent start...but it does seriously reduce the 'risk' inherent in piloting a spelljammer.

Yep, that's intentional. If WotC were to update it, you can bet they'd take away all of those severe penalties.

It's a tricky thing....because a spelljammer is an incredibly powerful tactical tool, and the ability to move one very quickly is ridiculously useful in combat; especially once I roll in the 'you can attack anywhere along your move action' rule that 5E uses. You could be in and out of combat range in a single move, and basically just kite the enemy ship to death...forcing it to 'ready actions' to have any chance of hitting you. Yes, spending a level 8 or 9 spell slot is a big deal, but the ability to outrun practically anything for the next 12 hours is a bit unbalanced when...if the ship IS caught, the caster can then spring up and unload his arsenal of 1-8th level spells. And imagine what happens if you bring a spelljammer to a ground battle..... Although I'm not 100% sure on the 'unbalanced' thing since it's a 'brand new concept' to 5E. Hence why I'm asking for opinions.

After hearing your thoughts, I think what I'd go with is something more along the lines of saying that if you disconnect from the helm (I'd have to decide what qualifies), you have to spend another spell slot to re-attune to it. That would put some more decision points and trade-offs.

But when we're talking about high-level casters, they should be fearsome. Unless your game is particularly high-powered, I expect most NPC ships are helmed by about 3rd-5th level casters.

And on second thought, we should use the attunement mechanic that 5e already has. Say you have to attune to a spelljamming helm to use it (it is a powerful magic item, so that it exactly how it would be handled in 5e), and then apply some minor penalty to your spellcasting capabilities while attuned.

As for divine magic, both 3e and 5e have embraced the idea that divine casters get to cast their spells even on other planes. In AD&D, priests had a number of restrictions when it came to planar travel - in addition to the previous restriction to 2nd level spells or lower, they were also penalized when on non-Prime planes based on the distance to their patron's home plane (-1 level per plane in between - so a priest of Zeus adventuring in the Abyss would have -3 levels because of Ysgard, Limbo, and Pandemonium). These restrictions were abolished in 3e, and have been kept abolished in 5e, because they're no fun.

Exactly.

I would however restrict spells that required actual planar communication/travel in the Phlogiston. No summoning, no teleport, no commune.

I wouldn't. If 3e had converted the Phlogiston (rather than leaving it hanging out in a waiting room with the quasi-elemental planes), they would have taken away that restriction.

Of all the planes and places in the multiverse, there is no particular reason why one section of the Material Plane ought to be uniquely inaccessible to divine magic. It was lprobably an idea one of the writers had in passing when figuring out how to restrict divine magic inside the spheres. "Hmmm...what about in the Phlogiston? Should we just let them get all their magic? No, then they'd spend too much time there, and we want people inside spheres. I guess we could determine how close they are to a sphere, and then treat them as if they were in that sphere, but maybe make it harder. Hmm. Okay, I've got it. They just can't access divine magic at all in the Phlogiston."

No more reason to keep that than the make magic items lose pluses when they travel the planes.

 

[guildsbounty]

I wouldn't. If 3e had converted the Phlogiston (rather than leaving it hanging out in a waiting room with the quasi-elemental planes), they would have taken away that restriction.

Of all the planes and places in the multiverse, there is no particular reason why one section of the Material Plane ought to be uniquely inaccessible to divine magic. It was lprobably an idea one of the writers had in passing when figuring out how to restrict divine magic inside the spheres. "Hmmm...what about in the Phlogiston? Should we just let them get all their magic? No, then they'd spend too much time there, and we want people inside spheres. I guess we could determine how close they are to a sphere, and then treat them as if they were in that sphere, but maybe make it harder. Hmm. Okay, I've got it. They just can't access divine magic at all in the Phlogiston."

No more reason to keep that than the make magic items lose pluses when they travel the planes.

But he wasn't saying 'block divine magic,' and I agree with him on that one. I'm going to leave divine magic alone. I will leave the restrictive rule listed as an 'optional' rule, but the 'default' ruleset will not include a restriction on divine magic.

There was a second magic restriction in place for Spelljammer that I think is thematically interesting enough to keep: Magic that involves direct interaction with other planes doesn't work. This is portals, teleportation, summoning, and other such magics. It's much more balanced than the divine restriction because it impacts all spellcasters equally.

This does NOT block anyone from preparing their spells, or even casting them...it's just that summoning something from another plane, teleporting through the Astral, or other effects like that do not function. It's a restriction in the same vein as how fire magic + phlogiston = you blow yourself up.

 

[Beleriphon]

As a thought, why not make Spell Jamming helms take attunement slots, all of them. A Lesser Helm uses all three, while a Greater Helm uses only two of the three. This means that a spell casting class can uses magic items, or pilot a ship. I'd add an relatively minor spell slot drain as an ignition that adds up to a total value (say 6 or 9) and the option to burn more spell slots for additional bonuses in combat (higher speed, advantage on attacks because of fancy maneuvers, etc.).

That way a helm user can't just disconnect from the helm and start using their magic weapons/items and using a helm takes at least 24 hours to get ready to use if it is non-attuned. So no just hopping in and off you go.

 

[Staffan]

I wouldn't. If 3e had converted the Phlogiston (rather than leaving it hanging out in a waiting room with the quasi-elemental planes), they would have taken away that restriction.

Of all the planes and places in the multiverse, there is no particular reason why one section of the Material Plane ought to be uniquely inaccessible to divine magic.

Not divine magic as a whole - magic that relies on extraplanar connections (both arcane and divine). A cleric would be able to cast heal, but not commune. A wizard could cast cone of cold but not contact other plane. And there are plenty of cases in both 3e and 5e for making magic work differently in different places.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

But he wasn't saying 'block divine magic,' and I agree with him on that one. I'm going to leave divine magic alone. I will leave the restrictive rule listed as an 'optional' rule, but the 'default' ruleset will not include a restriction on divine magic.

There was a second magic restriction in place for Spelljammer that I think is thematically interesting enough to keep: Magic that involves direct interaction with other planes doesn't work. This is portals, teleportation, summoning, and other such magics. It's much more balanced than the divine restriction because it impacts all spellcasters equally.

This does NOT block anyone from preparing their spells, or even casting them...it's just that summoning something from another plane, teleporting through the Astral, or other effects like that do not function. It's a restriction in the same vein as how fire magic + phlogiston = you blow yourself up.

Not divine magic as a whole - magic that relies on extraplanar connections (both arcane and divine). A cleric would be able to cast heal, but not commune. A wizard could cast cone of cold but not contact other plane. And there are plenty of cases in both 3e and 5e for making magic work differently in different places.

Ah yes. I read exactly what was written, probably understood it, and then somehow lost track of what I responding to before I had finished writing.

As far as planar connections...I'm still not sure of a good justification. It just seems like a really extreme restriction out of harmony with 5e. Even when they thought it up it was rather arbitrary and extreme. I can't really think of any thematic reason why it has to be there either. The Phlogiston can be used as an alternate means of transport instead of planar travel. Even if you could use planar travel to get in or out of the Phlogiston, there wouldn't be any reason to do so, because you'd just skip traversing the Phlogiston entirely! Of course, it's generally easier to take a ship through the Flow than to find a way to plane shift it, but there really isn't anyway that having full planar access would meaningfully alter travel.

I suppose an alternative might simply be that all planar travel to or from the Phlogiston arrives at a random location on the destination plane, because the Phlogiston is always in a state of somewhat chaotic motion and is difficult to gauge precisely. Maybe any attempts to commune with or summon planar beings likewise actually end up getting in touch with someone random on the chosen plane. That would effectively mean that no one is going to be using that sort of magic much, without making a nonsensically place "anti-plane" effect around the Phlogiston. Of course, then it becomes difficult to explain why the "chaotic" nature of the Phologiston would have such an effect, while Limbo doesn't.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

@OP: I'm not terribly interested in participating in a community-run project for Spelljammer, but I'm a big fan of Spelljammer itself, and I'm glad other people are too. I wish you luck with your conversion; and some of the ideas in this thread are interesting (integrating helms with 5E's "attunement" mechanic) and I might steal them.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

As far as planar connections...I'm still not sure of a good justification. It just seems like a really extreme restriction out of harmony with 5e. Even when they thought it up it was rather arbitrary and extreme. I can't really think of any thematic reason why it has to be there either. The Phlogiston can be used as an alternate means of transport instead of planar travel. Even if you could use planar travel to get in or out of the Phlogiston, there wouldn't be any reason to do so, because you'd just skip traversing the Phlogiston entirely! Of course, it's generally easier to take a ship through the Flow than to find a way to plane shift it, but there really isn't anyway that having full planar access would meaningfully alter travel.

Historically in AD&D, a major selling point of travel through the Phlogiston was that travelling through the planes cost you magical power (items decreased in potency by +1 per plane travelled, IIRC) whereas travelling through the phlogiston explicitly did not. If you want your +5 sword from Oerth to still be +5 when you get to Krynn, you have to go through the phlogiston, not the astral plane.

If you remove the restrictions on planar travel, the phlogiston becomes much less attractive. One way to compensate would be to say that the outer planes have a 1:1 spatial mapping (possibly compressed though) with the Prime Material plane, and that travelling from Oerth to Krynn through the the astral plane requires traversing thousands or hundreds of thousands of miles in astral space.

 

[jayoungr]

No detailed feedback at this time, but I just wanted to say that I love Spelljammer and would be very excited to see a 5E conversion!

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Historically in AD&D, a major selling point of travel through the Phlogiston was that travelling through the planes cost you magical power (items decreased in potency by +1 per plane travelled, IIRC) whereas travelling through the phlogiston explicitly did not. If you want your +5 sword from Oerth to still be +5 when you get to Krynn, you have to go through the phlogiston, not the astral plane.

I didn't realize that the bonuses didn't reset if you re-entered the original plane. I assumed that if you went elsewhere, and then back to the Prime, the bonuses would just be the Prime bonuses.

If you remove the restrictions on planar travel, the phlogiston becomes much less attractive. One way to compensate would be to say that the outer planes have a 1:1 spatial mapping (possibly compressed though) with the Prime Material plane, and that travelling from Oerth to Krynn through the the astral plane requires traversing thousands or hundreds of thousands of miles in astral space.

One thing that I have done in 3e is to say a creature from the Prime is more or less harmonized with the resonance of their home sphere. So if they use plane shift that's where they will end up. In order to get to a sphere other than your own, you'd have to use a portal or ride along with someone else from that plane. Alternatively one could say that each crystal sphere requires its own tuning fork to reach. In 3e I basically made the Phlogiston and each sphere be their own planar layers, with none really the "top"--your home sphere was the top layer for you.

I'm not sure exactly what I'll do in 5e, but something along those lines probably.

The primary attraction of the Phlogiston has always seemed to me that it's difficult to move an entire ship through the planes, so there is the cargo issue. Also, casters high enough level to utilize planar travel are rarer than ships, crew, and low-level casters. Since there is an entire demographic of space-farers, its only natural that they'd use their "normal" means of transport, rather than high-level magic, just like land-bound merchants and travelers are more likely to take ships or highways than to hire a high level caster to teleport them.