D&D 5E (2014) Spells: the Good, the Bad, and the Downright Orcish Grandmother

[Gadget]

[MENTION=59848]Hawk Diesel[/MENTION] you're right, I completely misread Bestow Curse. That makes Bestow Curse fairly weak for a 3rd level spell, IMHO. I'm not sure I agree that my changes would make RoE better than Heat Metal. While Heat Metal has the limitation of someone wearing metal armor (or holding a metal weapon), at the cost of a bonus action, the caster can do 2d8 fire damage every round and cause disadvantage on attacks and all ability checks. That's a bit better, imho. Like I said, I just don't rate a bonus/penalty to ability checks that high compared to other types of rolls made in combat.

 

[dropbear8mybaby]

Fair point, but I would argue initiative is a special rule that falls outside of normal use of what an ability check is supposed to be.

You do know that 5e D&D is an exception based system, right?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I was actually going to ask if there were examples of:

A) Saving throws requiring an action on the part of the target, or

B) Spells requiring ability checks not tied to a skill to resist the spell.

I truly could not think of any examples from the PHB, but I assumed if they existed they were likely to be uncommon.

Off the top of my head I can't think of any more examples of (A), but for (B) Web and Evard's Black Tentacles both spring immediately to mind. Web is opposed by Dex; Evard's Black Tentacles is opposed by the victim's choice of either Dex or Strength.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

You do know that 5e D&D is an exception based system, right?

I love the tone of condescension. But 5e is also a system of trends. Exceptions exist in any system. But when talking about how ability checks interact with spells, I'm much more inclined to look for examples within existing spells (such as those presented by [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION]) than how Initiative (something completely unrelated to the interaction between ability checks and spells) works.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Oh, yes, and Counterspell and Dispel Magic are also both forms of (B): spells that require non-skill ability checks.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

[MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] Actually Web requires those in the area to make Dex saves each round or be restrained. After being restrained, the target can then use an action to make a Strength check against the spell DC to free themselves. So Web is a good example (both mechanically and in terms of spell level) to justify using a version of Witchbolt that requires an action to make a Constitution check to escape being grappled. Thanks for bringing that spell to my attention, can't believe I forgot/overlooked it! ^_^

 

[dropbear8mybaby]

I love the tone of condescension.

Really? Please point to where I exhibited my condescension?

If you're going to attempt passive-aggression in order to create conflict where there is none over a completely innocuous comment merely because someone disagreed with you, then why should anyone engage you at all?

 

[Hawk Diesel]

[MENTION=6863518]dropbear8mybaby[/MENTION] I have no problem arguing with others and debating with people who share different points of view, and perhaps you did not intend to come off in the way I perceived. But in the way you framed your statement, it does come of as if you were presenting something as such a self-evident truth that I somehow missed or misunderstood about a system I've played and enjoyed for years. I think I know what you were getting at, but I also think it could have been framed better if your goal is to truly add something to the argument in a way that allows for meaningful discourse and engagement.

 

[rczarnec]

Off the top of my head I can't think of any more examples of (A), but for (B) Web and Evard's Black Tentacles both spring immediately to mind. Web is opposed by Dex; Evard's Black Tentacles is opposed by the victim's choice of either Dex or Strength.

Maze requires ability checks. Part of what makes the spell so good is that there is no initial saving throw and an Intelligence check to escape.

I have had a couple of characters get hit with that one.

 

[dropbear8mybaby]

[MENTION=6863518]dropbear8mybaby[/MENTION] I have no problem arguing with others and debating with people who share different points of view, and perhaps you did not intend to come off in the way I perceived. But in the way you framed your statement, it does come of as if you were presenting something as such a self-evident truth that I somehow missed or misunderstood about a system I've played and enjoyed for years. I think I know what you were getting at, but I also think it could have been framed better if your goal is to truly add something to the argument in a way that allows for meaningful discourse and engagement.

No, you're being incredibly oversensitive and looking for slights where there are none in order to create conflict and now you're trying to act like the aggrieved party and make out like it was my fault that you created this situation, and then you further attempt to aggravate the situation by making it seem as if I'm the one not being reasonable.

If your desire is to have constructive discussions then maybe don't go around accusing everyone of condescension, especially not in a text-based environment where meaning and intent can vary greatly when not explicitly described.

As for the ability check issue, you are also patently wrong. There are several spells and other features which call for plain ability checks. Dispel Magic, Counterspell and Maze for instance. If anyone is being condescending here, it is you, by claiming authority on something and correcting them on it, even when you're not correct.