Spiked Chain + Great Cleave = DM's Nightmare

[Azlan]

You probably want to stop having "a horde of 1 HD mooks" as your default encounter.

I've gotten this sort of reply a lot, here. Actually, ever since the PC's reached 6th level, the standard "mook" I've been using is 2 HD, with 12 hit points. Furthermore, there has been a veteran 3 HD "mook" thrown in for every three or four standard mooks. But this fighter PC is wielding a +2 spiked chain, which she is specialized with, and she has Str 18. So, the damage this fighter dishes out, per attack with her spiked chain, is d6+10. Which means, she drops a standard mook with a single hit, 5 out of 6 times. (And that's provided she's not buffed, which she usually is.)

Now, I can upgrade the standard mooks to 3 HD (and the veteran mooks, to 4 HD). But then I'd be worried about overwhelming the other PC's. Because, not all – not even most – of the mooks are ganging up on the fighter. And some of the more climatic confrontations in our campaign have involved 30 or more mooks, on a huge battle map.

To me, a simple and acceptable solution would be for me to rule that a spiked chain can attack an opponent at 5'; as well as attack, with reach, a opponent at 10'; but that a spiked chain only threatens the wielder's surrounding 5' area. (Which seems pretty realistic, to me.) Even with this "house" rule in place, the fighter will still be taking out a lot of mooks per round, with her Great Cleave feat.

 

[Azlan]

Some folks feel Cleaving on AoOs is unreasonable since the AoO in the first place is on someone who dropped thier guard, something the person being cleaved into did not do.

Hmm. Maybe so. Most feats and special attacks can't be use with an Attack of Opportunity, so why should Great Cleave be?

 

[frankthedm]

keep using 1 HD warriors! Reach weapons, ranged atatcks and tower shields.

To me, a simple and acceptable solution would be for me to rule that a spiked chain can attack an opponent at 5'; as well as attack, with reach, a opponent at 10'; but that a spiked chain only threatens the wielder's surrounding 5' area. (Which seems pretty realistic, to me.) Even with this "house" rule in place, the fighter will still be taking out a lot of mooks per round, with her Great Cleave feat.

Sounds quite reasonable, at least to me. That chain really should operate more like a whip than a pole arm.

 

[Azlan]

In my own game, I house ruled the spiked chain out mostly because I knew it would make it difficult to run the kind of game I liked to run if any player decided to go for the Spiked chain cheese. The only reason I really dislike the spiked chain is that it is the only weapon that threatens at 5 and 10 feet at the same time. I tend to distrust any sort of build that depends on single specific bit of equipment to work.

It's a husband and wife who recently joined my campaign, and the wife is playing the fighter with the spiked chain. However, from talking with them, it sounds like they chose this build for the wife's character because it proved to be so damn effective in a previous campaign they were in. Thus, the character was pretty much designed around the use of a spiked chain, from the get-go. As for myself, this is the first time I've had a spiked chained weilding PC in one of my campaigns.

Since you already let the player into the game, I do not advise trying to remove the weapon from the game.

I do not want to remove the weapon from my game, I only want to tone it down, and only just a little. (Yes, some of you here will see that as "nerfing".) Otherwise, I'll have to quit using so many "mooks" in my campaign encounters, which my other players and myself have long since come to enjoy.

 

[phindar]

I like using hordes of low-level guys too, but they just don't scale in power that much. The higher the level of the party, more and more 2HD hordes are just obstacles. They aren't so much threats as a way to slow the party down, and even then, they don't slow them down that much.

You can make them into swarms, or you can buff them, or you can have them start using layered tactics. Even stupid huanoids can be cunning, and even the ones that are just plain dumb don't have to be super-dumb. After the first wave gets annihiliated by the whirling Chain O' Death, the rest will give her a wide berth and let the ogre chieften take care of that. (Even superdumb humanoids can let cowardice work in their favor.)

Here's the thing. If you have a go-to tactic you rely on, the pcs are going to get very good at countering that tactic. So you have to vary the bag of tricks, and counter-program your encounters.

 

[frankthedm]

Hmm. Maybe so. Most feats and special attacks can't be use with an Attack of Opportunity, so why should Great Cleave be?

The wording of great cleave is what allows it. I have no quams about letting somone with great cleave not "use up" AoOs IF the foe is dropped by the AoO. Thus if 20 mooks give someone with great cleave AoOs on them, he'll be able to take all of those provided they all drop when struck. I just object to those 'AoO cleaves' being directed at someone who never drew an AoO in the first place.

This thread may shed more light on this subject http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=192811

An effective way to illustrate my issue with cleaving on AoOs in play is to get some commoners involved in a battle where the PC's foes have cleave and reach weapons. Then see how much the players like having other's AoOs lead to cleaves on them.

 

[Elethiomel]

Otherwise, I'll have to quit using so many "mooks" in my campaign encounters, which my other players and myself have long since come to enjoy.

Why don't you think the "mooks" using tactics is a good idea?

 

[frankthedm]

Why don't you think the "mooks" using tactics is a good idea?

The combination of - Cleave on an AoO, Spiked chain's Reach and threaten all around you and greatcleave all add up to make Mobs o' mooks even less effective than they should be.

heck, this can beat fireball several times over in effectiveness in a single round.

 

[Azlan]

Why don't you think the "mooks" using tactics is a good idea?

It is a good idea. However, I don't want to be, all of a sudden, "meta-gaming" the formation and tactics of my mooks, from this point forward. Realistically, unless they are a team of mooks especially put together and trained/equipped to deal with this particular group of PC's – and not really to deal with this group of PC's, per se, but to deal with a particular individual PC – they shouldn't be able to come up with some of the tactics and/or equipment that you guys suggested. For example, why would the PC's all of sudden start encountering mobs of mooks armed entirely with pole-arms, unless they were special units designed to deal with the likes of the PC's? Not that I'm averse to throwing such special units against the PC's, on occasion. But I wouldn't want it to become a common occurrence, because it wouldn't fit logically within the campaign world and the current focus/make-up of the campaign's adventures.

 

[nittanytbone]

No mechanical changes are needed.

Just play the bad guys "smart." You are absolutely correct that upon first contact, mooks may assume these humans are just another band of militia to be cut down. However, if these guys are of mid-level, word of Gord the Goblin Smasher should be spreading among the tribes. Perhaps the shaman, who has a few ranks in Knowledge (Local), has warned his troops to be on the lookout. Maybe a dark wizard gives a friendly tip to the local humanoids and gives them a wagon full of tower shields. Perhaps a more advanced tribe of hobgoblins sends some level 3 Fighter Sergeants to come and train the locals in more advanced tactics. Humanoids are cunning -- their lives are nasty, brutish and short, and the ones that can't adapt to the fortunes of war die off.

Disciplined troops (lawful types, such as hobgoblins) will recoil from the initial blows and reform. They will then employ missile weapons or formation tactics to overwhelm the spiked chain wielder. For example, a front rank could advance with tower shields using full defense for a bonus to AC while a second rank armed with polearms uses the aid another action to boost the front rank's AC. Once the phalanx has closed to threat range, the second (and third/fourth) ranks also get the benefit of cover from the spiked chain.

Use minor alchemical items to shape the battlefield. You can't strike what you can't see. A simple smokestick or obscuring mist spell from a level 1 adept provides effective concealment for an advance. Plus, the miss chance ensures that great cleave will fail after 5 times on average.

Chaotic foes might charge in one at a time, boasting each other to best the previous onrusher's attempt. This draws out the AoO until they're all sucked up. Chaotic foes might also break and run only to set up an ambush under more favorable conditions later. An orc barbarian might hurl a spear before charging in or pull out a longspear.

Tactics such as grappling might also be effective.

They might also trust to a shaman or witch doctor to deal with the threat... A simple "Command" spell might take the spiked chain wielder out of the fight for a round, which is all the foes need to surround and pound them.

Finally, as Magneto says in X-Men, "That's why the pawns go first." Low HD humanoid mooks are just pawns for more powerful leaders. Against a mid-high level adventuring party, they will die in swarms, but they soak up AoO, drain resources (Fighter's HP and wizard's spells), and buy time for the leaders to buff/get into position.