Spiked Chain + Great Cleave = DM's Nightmare

[Azlan]

First of all, how did she get a +2 spiked chain? I don't think that has ever come up as random treasure in one of my games...

As I said, this couple is new to my campaign, and so they had to create new characters upon joining. Thus, the fighter was pretty much created around the uber-use of a spiked chain, from the get go. With her starting wealth, the fighter-player was able to afford a +2 spiked chain and still have money leftover for plate armor (non-magical, though).

 

[Legildur]

...with the spiked chain wielding fighter being responsible for 3/4 of the kills.

Wow! I have a reasonably optimized chain fighter (Bbr1/Clr3(strength/luck)/Ftr4/EWM1) and he is great for battlefield control when enlarged and raging. But the dwarf and elf fighters consistently outdamage him and are more durable due to much better ACs.

Sure, no humanoid short of huge size can hold onto their weapon (Improved Disarm) or stand (Improved Trip) in the vicinity, but the lesser base damage (2d4) and damage type (piercing) mitigate that to some degree.

I built him as a support character, and that is the role he fills.

The biggest impediment to maximising AOOs is cover - remember to use the rules for ranged weapons when determining cover. That reduces the number of opportunities (unless you take the specific Exotic Weapon Stunt available to the Exotic Weapon Master prestige class).

 

[Azlan]

Sounds like a great encounter! But even a great encounter, repeated identically over and over, will be boring.

Next time mix it up some:

- Add "elites." The monster manual suggests levels for sergeants and chieftiens. They should accompany any large band to provide C2. This will improve the tactics of the monsters significantly. Adding a spellcaster (cleric/shaman, wizard/sorcerer/adept, etc) also changes things quite a bit.

Actually, I did that. Every 3rd or 4th goblinoid was an elite, with a higher number of hit dice and slightly better equipment. And there was a couple of hobgoblin shamans (i.e. 2nd level clerics), thrown into that mix.

- Add "specialty troops." A squad of hobgoblin archers with PBS + Rapid Shot, some goblin wolf/worg riders, or bugbear berserkers (add a level or barbarian and perhaps the Mad Foam Rager feat so they're harder to drop).

- In 1E many humanoids had animals as guards/pets. Hobgoblins have Carnivorous Apes, Goblins the Wolf/Worg, etc. Some of these animals could present a much different challenge to your spiked chain tripper (four legs + large size).

Again, I'd be beefing up the encounter and adding specialty units specifically to deal with one individual PC, and my concern is that this would prove overwhelming and unfair for the other PC's in the group.

- Add an elite monster. "They have a cave troll" - LOTR.

Did that, with the bugbears. Sort of. One of those five bugbears was an elite, who not only had a higher number of HD and slightly better equipment, but also had four more points of Strength.

Oh, and I now recall that I also had a couple of ogres, thrown into the mix.

- Add terrain. A ruined bell tower with snipers, a bridge chokepoint where the baddies have a flying monster, or a burning building all present very difficult tactical challenges.

True.

Some of the "micro" encounters within that mass-scale "macro" encounter took place in narrow alleyways or within the cramped confines of a town home. Which makes me think: Why should a spiked chain be able to continuously threaten an area 10' around the wielder, while the wielder is in a 5' wide x 30' long alleyway? And yet if we play strictly by-the-book, the wielder could stand in the middle of the alleyway and have dozens of goblinoids rushing into the alleyway and at her from both sides, but they'd have a snowball's chance in hell of being able to get to her and overwhelm her.

No, the more I think about it, the more I realize I should simply rule it that a spiked chain only threatens the 5' area surrounding the wielder, though it can still be used to reach out and attack an opponent 10' away from the wielder.

 

[RuminDange]

Use 30 1-HD mooks and turn them into a Mob.



RD

 

[Felnar]

are the other characters in the group underdeveloped(very un-optimized)? Is the chain wielder the only one ever in the spotlight?

if so, i'd like to second Lord Zardoz's comment to speak with the player and see what her thoughts are about spreading the spotlight around

remember, throwing monsters at other characters strengths (ranger favored enemy, etc) is different from throwing monsters at the spiked chains weaknesses. Sometimes they just overlap

 

[nittanytbone]

Some of the "micro" encounters within that mass-scale "macro" encounter took place in narrow alleyways or within the cramped confines of a town home. Which makes me think: Why should a spiked chain be able to continuously threaten an area 10' around the wielder, while the wielder is in a 5' wide x 30' long alleyway? And yet if we play strictly by-the-book, the wielder could stand in the middle of the alleyway and have dozens of goblinoids rushing into the alleyway and at her from both sides, but they'd have a snowball's chance in hell of being able to get to her and overwhelm her.

Not really.

First mook charges in, gets AoO'd, and dies.
Second mook charges in, gets AoO'd, and dies.
Third mook charges in, gets AoO'd, and dies.
Fighter is now out of Combat Reflexes AoO.

Fourth mook charges in and readies a grapple attack vs. his friends arriving.
Fifth mook charges in and aids another for Mook #4.
Sixth & seventh mooks run in with longspears and aid another on Mook #4 to boost his "to hit."

Mook #4 then initiates a grapple, as the fighter is out of AoO. With three aid another attempts, he should have good odds of landing a touch attack. Once the fighter is grappled, he no longer threatens any squares. In the next round, an untold number of mooks pile onto the fighter (no more AoO...), drag him to the ground, and poke their fingers in his eyes repeatedly.

If the fighter doesn't use their AoO in hope of drawing more mooks into the alley before executing the AoO (and hopefully cleaving onto more than one of them), then the earlier mooks just get more attacks. The fighter can try to use an AoO to disrupt the grapple, but then they run out of AoO and the scenario plays out as above.

Alternatively, have mooks charge in to draw the AoO, then once the fighter seems to be out of AoO, have the elites pile on after remarking, "That's why the pawns go first."

Or, some of the warriors use climb checks to get onto the roof on either side of the alley. Climb is one of the few in-class skills for warriors so they may actually have some ranks, or they can just throw a rope up there and climb up with an easy check. Then they can drop things on the hapless fighter or leap onto him to initiate grapples, tear him to the ground, and tickle him viciously.

If you don't like the grapple rules, disarm checks ought to work just about as well. Aid Another used liberally can help quite a bit with low check modifiers when you have large numbers!

 

[JDJblatherings]

I just don't allow the AOO cleave, becasue AOO is supposed to be agaisn the target that initiates the AOO not other targtes and a target with cover ins't targteable on an aoo (unless there is some feat, which there must be). Spikedchain and combat reflexes is still awesomely dangerous but not overhwlming and on the attack the spiked chain wielder is going to wreak havoc.

I think the game shoudl have a "dangerous weapons" rule. Doign somehting involving jumping around and you have a exposed dangerous weapon and you just rolled a 1...ooops you just hit yourself. People hurt themselves with their own weapons all the time and the reallife reason we didn't see armies of spiked-chain weilders and double headed weapon freaks is because they are hard to carry and dangerous to the user, but that could be a drift too far off into simulationism.

 

[eamon]

Your problems are compounded by a number of issues

6th level Wealth by Level is 13k. Generally, this means that you can spend no more than 1/3 of this amount on a single item, and if you're lenient 1/2 (which I wouldn't be with uncommon things like highly magical spiked chains) That means no items of more that 4333gp each, and that means at most a +1 Spiked chain. It's just a +1, and not by itself a problem, but it add's to the issues.

You're using the worst possible creatures against a spiked chain fighter: relatively small bipedal creatures with limited strength and a low number of hitpoints each. This is easy to fix, just add some creatures that don't drop in a single hit to halt his great-cleave madness.

You made a rules mistake by allowing great cleave to trigger an attack on all opponents within reach, when you get only one. That's really easy to fix, of course

You sound like you didn't play very tactically (which would have been difficult with that rules mistake anyhow, but still).

• Use Total Defense for +4 AC as a standard action when approaching such dangerous foes
• Use grapple to take him out of combat completely.
• Use Smokesticks or whatnot to impose a concealment misschance on the cheap, making successive hits that much more unlikely.
• Use hold person or any other fighter specific counter-strategy against him.
• Realize that reach weapons are like ranged weapons when determining cover - that means soft cover works and if any line can be drawn between the two respective squares that's obstructed by a creature, even an ally, you have cover and thus +4 AC and no AoO's. If you use his allies as cover against him, another meta-game benefit is that you'll be including them more since enemies are likely to approach them more closely.
• instead of attacking him, ready an attack (including a five-foot step), triggering as soon as he's within 10-feet. No AoO, and you get to attack first too!
• Use tumble to avoid AoO. A creature with 5 tumble ranks gets +6 AC instead of +4 when using total defense, too.
• Use ranged weapons, and reach weapons!
• Use mounted opponents. Good luck tripping a horse...

And of course you can combine these factors. Use concealment, soft cover, and ready a grapple with five-foot step all in one round .

Realize also that it's pretty coincidental that your other PC's can't deal with huge amounts of 1HD mooks easily. I mean, even the first level spells "Sleep" and "Color Spray" would be devastating against such a group, not to speak of fireball - so let him have a bit of glory, and have him tremble with fear against many many of the things which the rest are much better at ;-).

(Of course, a ranger and a paladin are liable not to be really optimal, but that's that...)

 

[eamon]

Low level Spells to use against him:

• hold person, 2nd level cleric/3rd level wizard, going to be a killer since he's unlikely to have a high wisdom. Definitely try this...
• (Tasha's) Hideous laughter - bard 1, wizard 2, almost worse than hold person since it only allows one save
• Grease, 1st level wizard, cast on his weapon at distance, reflex save or drop.
• Glitterdust - wizard 2 - can blind, denying him all AoO and with serious penalties.
• Fog cloud / obscuring mist - wizard 2 /1 - total concealment at 10+ feet making reach pointless, normal concealment at 5ft making successive cleaves unlikely.
• darkness - wizard 2/cleric 2 - concealment.
• Ray of enfeeblement - nasty nasty spell against Str-dependant opponents like the spiked chain fighter.
• Doom - cleric 1, simple means to make him shaken. Also allows the paladin's anti-fear aura to shine.
• Web - wizard 2 - take him out of combat
• Entanglement - druid 1 - take him out of combat

 

[eamon]

None of these specific tactical tips are really going to help you if your real problem is that you have 1 optimizer and 3 others (role-players, or any other style of player, say). It's too easy to optimize some other character-build if you just "fix" the spiked chain. If that's the issue, talking about it with the player(s) might help. DMG II has some good things about dealing with these kind of stylistic differences, I find.