D&D 3E/3.5 Stacking Bonuses in 3.5

[Lela]

Spellcraft is important at epic levels for spellcasters, however, hide and spot can be very important at epic levels as well. An epic level rogue with a +120 (before his skill ranks and dexterity are added in) on his hide rolls would be one heck of an assassin. There is the old strategy of buffing up one's allies. Or imagine the case of a multi-class arcane caster/rogue. Such a character could easily outshine a rogue of equal levels without access to such items.

I see your point and will venture a tentitive agreement.

In fact, I've run into a similar situation, though I didn't really consider it a problem. The PC had taken some kind of Ninja PrC in OA (I forget which one) and had incredible bonuses to acrobatic skills (Balance, Tumble, etc.). To finish off the character concept he took several different skill boosting items. His Hide skill was dramatically increased using these methods. Combined with Hide in Plain Sight, he could have been a problem but, when in practice, it wasn't that bad.

I did grow somewhat annoyed that no one ever saw him. Even the other party members didn't really know where he was 90% of the time (and he was usually standing next to them). But it became an incredibly fun RP tool and, sometimes, a good joke.

I did finally decide that his enemies (he bore the personal animosity of Shar herself) would start to wise up. So I started going throgh the books, looking for something that a few foes could pull on him. I found the Sacred Fist (DotF) PrC. At 7th level (or thereabouts), they get Blindsight. You should have seen his face when two Monks ran straight up to him and told him to put his hands on the wall (lucky for him he'd just had Slippers of Spider Climb enchanted). The other players were flabbergasted as well. He spent the next few hours begging me to tell him how they saw him (not during game time of course). Finally I gave in. Got an extremely evil look for that one.

I guess what I'm saying is that I've found that the difference between a PC calling out 55 and 72 on a Tumble check isn't all that much. He still succeeds and with class.

And, it should be noted, if the straight Rogue wants to be known for his Hide skill, he might want to get some skill boosting items of his own. At that point he'd floor the Mage/Rogue.


That said, I still think there should be a cap on ability to create skill boosting items. As I've said, I don't see much danger with Hide or Spot (after a +30 item, it just doesn't matter) but I see Spellcraft as an extreme threat to game balance during epic levels. And since it's the magi who create the items there would be a lot more epic spells flying around, causing a lot more havok.

In regards to that, though, I've often said to my players, "Sure, you can do that. But if you do it to me (the world/organization/religion/whatever), I'll do it to you. That took care of the Harm idea real quick and I could see it working in this case.

 

[William Ronald]

Lela,

I tend to agree that players need to realize any tactic that they can use will likely be used by their enemies. I think the problem is not so much with epic skill bonus items, but with lesser items that stack. (Perhaps this can be addressed in future editions.)

I think the point Darkness made earlier on this thread about the Duelist is a good point. You should not be able to take a single level of a prestige class and receive a tremendous benefit. (I like what was done with the duelist in 3.5.)

I have somewhat mixed feelings on the Epic Spell system. As things now stand, there is no need for an epic spellcaster to create an epic skill item. All a player needs to do, as I understand the rules, is to create multiple +30 skill bonus items. So, if the Profane and Sacred bonuses do not cancel out, this would allow a caster to create SEVEN skill items with a +30 bonus for a total bonus of +210!!!

 

[Lela]

I think I've lost track of where we're going with this.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I did grow somewhat annoyed that no one ever saw him. Even the other party members didn't really know where he was 90% of the time (and he was usually standing next to them). But it became an incredibly fun RP tool and, sometimes, a good joke.

This comment made me laugh. The guy was never there while they were wandering around, just some disembodied voice making mysterious and profound comments. *chuckle*

 

[Lela]

Re: re

This comment made me laugh. The guy was never there while they were wandering around, just some disembodied voice making mysterious and profound comments. *chuckle*

There was one player who swares he's never seen the guy.

Another couldn't figure out when he joined the party. It wasn't until recently (during some down time) that they got to know him.


PC2: "Who are you?!?"
Me (DM): "You don't know he's there; you can't ask."

There was the occational dramatic tiraid that put us all in stiches. I'll see about directing the player to this thread and see if he'll grace us with it again.

 

[William Ronald]

So far, it seems that there is nothing I know of in the 3.5 rules that limits the scope of stacking bonuses. So, it looks like there is no practical upper limit to how high skill bonuses can go in the official rules.

Earlier in the thread, I proposed a house rule that a caster can create a skill bonus item with a bonus no greater than twice his caster level. Perhaps a second good house rule would be that multiple skill bonus items stack only up to a bonus of +30. This would actually require an epic level caster to create an epic level item to gain a bonus of +31 or higher.

What do you think?

 

[Lela]

So far, it seems that there is nothing I know of in the 3.5 rules that limits the scope of stacking bonuses. So, it looks like there is no practical upper limit to how high skill bonuses can go in the official rules.

Okay, I've got that part.

Earlier in the thread, I proposed a house rule that a caster can create a skill bonus item with a bonus no greater than twice his caster level. Perhaps a second good house rule would be that multiple skill bonus items stack only up to a bonus of +30. This would actually require an epic level caster to create an epic level item to gain a bonus of +31 or higher.

Aw, yes, I see.

What do you think?

I'd go ahead and say it's fine. I don't think I'd get a groan out of that one. As I said, in most cases, there's not much point above +30 anyway. And I certainly don't see it as being a balance issue (unless someone's using it for the skill)

Personally, I'd save it as a Foot Down House Rule. When it's needed, I'll bring it up. I try to keep the House Rules light anyway (less confusion).


And I'm not sure on my feelings about the Epic Magic system either. Seems to me baising the primery feature on a skill isn't in keeping with the rest of 3.X.

 

[William Ronald]

Lela,

Thanks for your input.

I think I will make it a "Foot Down House Rule." (Good term! I will have to remember it.)

To me, the Epic Spell System seems to mostly focus on certain skills, and seems to be a bit awkward and unwieldy. I think a better approach might have been to work on levels of spells, which more closely fit the rest of the system. (As well as guidelines on what you can and can't do with spells of a certain level.) I like to think that magic should have a sense of wonder, and the Epic Spell rules really do not give me that feeling.

 

[Lela]

Lela,

Thanks for your input.

NP

I think I will make it a "Foot Down House Rule." (Good term! I will have to remember it.)

Made it up on the spot I think. Thanks.

To me, the Epic Spell System seems to mostly focus on certain skills, and seems to be a bit awkward and unwieldy. I think a better approach might have been to work on levels of spells, which more closely fit the rest of the system. (As well as guidelines on what you can and can't do with spells of a certain level.) I like to think that magic should have a sense of wonder, and the Epic Spell rules really do not give me that feeling.

Gets a little too complex for me. Then again, I usually play Fighter types and I've found that not many spellcasting types come out as NPCs. I should fix it (maybe force myself to play a Sorceror next time) but, for now, it lessens the complications. DMing Epic might kill me.


[Edit: Almost forgot, I'll direct the PC I mentioned above. If he feels so inclined he may grace us once again with a tiraid on the hidden party member.]

 

[William Ronald]

So, does anyone else have suggestions on how high skill bonuses and other types of bonuses SHOULD go in 3.5 and 3.0? I know the rules allow a lot, but too me, it seems there should be some practical limits based on character levels. (I like to think that magic items can improve a skill, but should not take the place of having high skill ranks.)