Star Wars Saga, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[Felon]

Look, guys you are being seriously arguementative. Instead of just saying "I see where you're coming from", you're coming back with stuff like "oh, he's not a player-character" or "it's Luke's story, so they just held back" or "I write this off as the player being sleepy" (what the...?) or some other comment that basically evades the issues of whether or not anyone other than jedi were steeped in combat feats.

While you can say that the non-Jedi characters didn't display much in the way of combat ability, consider this: what battles did they LOSE? Whenever Han or Leia got into a blaster fight, they retreated only in the face of overwhelming numbers (and took down significant numbers of stormtroopers, who are fairly tough in Saga); compare that to how the rebel troopers fared in the opening sequence of Star Wars. Lando is statted up as only 7th level (compared to 10th, 11th and 12th levels for Leia, Han and Luke); he's competent in a fight as a heroic character should be, but nothing really special. Despite having no reason whatsoever to be combat-trained, Padme was reasonably effective with a blaster in the first two prequels, certainly moreso than any of the mooks on either side - simply by virtue of being the cinematic equivalent of a PC.

OK, now you're opposing me while adopting my position. Heroes can survive and succeed against nonheroes in both Saga and the movies just by their innate "heroicness", not because they're elite warriors.

What fights did the non-jedis lose? Well, I'll grant Han is a good guy to have on your side in a dogfight, but once they're skirmishing there's not a lot to write home about. In New Hope there's really only the Death Star battle, which is them running in, grabbing Leia, and then fleeing. In Empire Strikes Back, I can't think of any major firefights, because again they're running away until they run into Vader like a brick wall and Han can't touch the guy. It's not even close (and if you start replying "yeah, but that's Darth Vader", then give yourself a whack because that is, once again, very much my point). In Return of the Jedi, they go to rescue Han, and there's no fight when the infiltration attempt fails. They simply surrender and let Luke save the day. And on the ground, the Battle for Endor is pretty much troopers versus ewoks and their slings and log-traps (that's why a lot of folks wound up not liking it after all). In short, you can think up all the mitigating issues you want that excuse a less-than-stellar showing, but at the end of the day, the non-jedis are just not that steeped in kick-butt combat skills. It's not an accident that the examples for the Soldier class is limited to a bunch of minor characters like Admiral Akbar.

Han does at least okay in pretty much every other firefight in the series. Chewie tosses around or one punches stormtroopers (alas, the ratings mean that we can't actually seem him follow up on the promise to tear someone's arms off ) when he isn't stealing a vehicle and dominating.

Yeah, they do okay. That's a pretty good way of putting it. And they'd do okay in Saga just milking their level-based bonuses to attack and damage. But they're not masters of blaster-fu.

 

[Felon]

R2's the one with the enormous Wisdom and Perception scores, seeing and thinking of things no one else does, and he's the computer guy. Also, while he has no weapons organic to his design, plug him into the Death Star and he could probably hijack the superlaser.

3PO...he's comic relief, which means he passes out bonuses. Also, he does have social skills. You don't have to shoot a blaster if you can convince someone else to shoot it for you.

Indeed. I don't see writing them off as NPC's, especially R2, just because they're not warriors. They do save the others' necks, and it's not like they're just hanging around in the background.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Jango Fett held his own against Obi Wan, they were pretty much evenly matched. Of course Jango Fett was killed rather handily by Mace Windu.

What I found very surprising in episode 3 was how easily the Clone Troopers killed off the Jedi.

But if you stick to the original trilogy I don't think there is an instance of a Jedi being bested by a non-Jedi.
Edit: Except for when in a New Hope Han blasts Vader's Tie Fighter allowing Luke to blow up the Death Star.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Look, guys you are being seriously arguementative. Instead of just saying "I see where you're coming from", you're coming back with stuff like "oh, he's not a player-character" or "it's Luke's story, so they just held back" or "I write this off as the player being sleepy" (what the...?) or some other comment that basically evades the issues of whether or not anyone other than jedi were steeped in combat feats.

Chewbacca's "player's" actions in the WotC combat example sound like classic "player isn't paying attention" behavior.

Anyway, here's two non-Jedi shown in the movies as steeped in combat feats: Jango Fett and General Grievous. The latter, at least, is statted up as being the same level as Obi-Wan; both gave him a good fight. Boba Fett probably qualifies, too, but as noted in the aforementioned combat example, he got screwed by the dice and Han's use of a Destiny Point.

OK, now you're opposing me while adopting my position. Heroes can survive and succeed against nonheroes in both Saga and the movies just by their innate "heroicness", not because they're elite warriors.

And their effectiveness in d20 is based on their BAB (shared between heroic and nonheroic characters), their stats (shared between heroic and nonheroic characters; Saga doesn't even suggest a lower point-buy for nonheroics), their hit points and defenses (finally, an edge to the heroes!) and their skills, feats and talents (another edge to the heroes).

Unless the PCs are just always much higher level, or are burning Force Points just to survive in every encounter.

What fights did the non-jedis lose? Well, I'll grant Han is a good guy to have on your side in a dogfight, but once they're skirmishing there's not a lot to write home about. In New Hope there's really only the Death Star battle, which is them running in, grabbing Leia, and then fleeing. In Empire Strikes Back, I can't think of any major firefights, because again they're running away until they run into Vader like a brick wall and Han can't touch the guy. It's not even close (and if you start replying "yeah, but that's Darth Vader", then give yourself a whack because that is, once again, very much my point). In Return of the Jedi, they go to rescue Han, and there's no fight when the infiltration attempt fails. They simply surrender and let Luke save the day. And on the ground, the Battle for Endor is pretty much troopers versus ewoks and their slings and log-traps (that's why a lot of folks wound up not liking it after all). In short, you can think up all the mitigating issues you want that excuse a less-than-stellar showing, but at the end of the day, the non-jedis are just not that steeped in kick-butt combat skills. It's not an accident that the examples for the Soldier class is limited to a bunch of minor characters like Admiral Akbar.

Yet the skirmishing, especially in A New Hope, results in piles of dead stormtroopers while the heroes get through largely unscathed. Since there's no mechanic for dumping bucketloads of narrative control onto a noncombat character (like the scaling amounts of Drama Points by "class" in Cinematic Unisystem), their ability to mow down mooks better than other mooks do... probably involves combat feats. Those don't have to represent special training, they can represent heroic luck or whatever else you like.

But the reason Han, Leia and Chewbacca can't touch Darth Vader IS because he's Darth Vader! That's true both in the film and in the game. They're well-rounded 10th and 11th level characters against a 19th level combat monster with better stats and an entire army of mooks. Even if you take away the stormtroopers, Vader should have no serious trouble defeating them. Do mid-high level D&D PCs with a broad mix of abilities generally stand a chance against a CR 19 dragon when they happen to stumble across its lair? What about a CR 19 dragon with a nigh-limitless supply of orcs, each with a ring of communication and a composite longbow with +4 arrows?

The situations the non-jedi PCs get into in the movies simply can't be solved by combat. Even three combat-twinked jedi would almost certainly lose that fight.

For an example of Jedi getting mooked - look at Palpatine slaughtering the non-Mace Windu Jedi in RotS, and the effects of Order 66 on the non-Yoda, non-Obi-Wan Jedi. Jedi who aren't extremely high level appear to go down easier than, and to do less damage than, high-level non-Jedi. Combat prowess has more to do with level (generally a convenient shorthand for narrative significance) than it does with class.

Yeah, they do okay. That's a pretty good way of putting it. And they'd do okay in Saga just milking their level-based bonuses to attack and damage. But they're not masters of blaster-fu.

True. A MASTER of blaster-fu would be 20th level, and be a Soldier 7/Gunslinger 10/Bounty Hunter 3 (or some such combat monster build). He wouldn't have Scoundrel or Noble or Scout levels holding back his BAB (as Han and Leia do), and he wouldn't 'waste' levels on something like Ace Pilot (as Han does).

 

[chobin foot]

Look, guys you are being seriously arguementative. Instead of just saying "I see where you're coming from", you're coming back with stuff like "oh, he's not a player-character" or "it's Luke's story, so they just held back" or "I write this off as the player being sleepy" (what the...?) or some other comment that basically evades the issues of whether or not anyone other than jedi were steeped in combat feats.

The essential problem was that they tried to fit a movie scene into the rules with that Sarlacc Pit "battle", as stated before.

It just wasn't an impressive display of a roleplaying game, IMO. A lot of dice rolling, a lot of frustration heaped on one poor player for no apparent reason ("OKAY, Lando's Player... your character just hangs there. Got it? You hang there & you're forced to make stupid dice rolls until I decide to stop torturing you.").

If I were playing Lando, I would have walked out & never come back after that gaming session. Seemed like a whole lot of wasted time for Lando.

Entertaining movie scene at the Sarlacc Pit... just not impressive as a roleplaying event, IMO

/also confused by the lack of miniatures in the Sarlacc Pit example

 

[atomn]

It's not like we see the other characters performing at anything near their full potential. The entire fight is pretty much structured to let Luke show off.

Don't forget Leia, she was pretty darn impressive when she put an end to poor Jabba!

For Han, it's pretty much limited to dogfighting in the Milllenium Falcon, not kicking butt as a gunslinger.

At the Battle of Endor, Han's pretty accurate with his blaster. And Chewie was accurate enough to hit a moving speederbike and take it out in one shot.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Don't forget Leia, she was pretty darn impressive when she put an end to poor Jabba!

True. She did lots of damage, folds nicely into the new level-based damage mechanic. However, Jabba probably put all his levels into low BAB classes (too).

At the Battle of Endor, Han's pretty accurate with his blaster. And Chewie was accurate enough to hit a moving speederbike and take it out in one shot.

Han Solo was shooting at mostly low level opponents (no matter how high level his opponents thought they were). Someone has to fill me in on the "rules for shooting vehicles".

 

[Felon]

Anyway, here's two non-Jedi shown in the movies as steeped in combat feats: Jango Fett and General Grievous. The latter, at least, is statted up as being the same level as Obi-Wan; both gave him a good fight. Boba Fett probably qualifies, too, but as noted in the aforementioned combat example, he got screwed by the dice and Han's use of a Destiny Point.

Jengo Fett and General Grievous are very good examples of heroic-level characters giving a jedi a run for his money. I say that with some partiality, as I used Jengo Fett as an example myself this weekend when one of the pundits in our group responded to the notion of running Star Wars Saga the same way some folks did when they first heard about the Star Wars Galaxies MMORPG: "Well, you know, everyone will want to play a jedi". I do like the designers' decision to assume all heroic characters can potentially be extremely effective combatants. General Grievous is a little more tricky to use as an example, since he's not really something a PC could aspire to. In a lot of ways it's better to think of him as a monster.

But this is off my point, which was just that it isn't accurate to say that being true to the movies means making every player character heavily-invested in combat talents and feats. People don't seem to disagree with that statement...yet at the same time they do.

But the reason Han, Leia and Chewbacca can't touch Darth Vader IS because he's Darth Vader! That's true both in the film and in the game. They're well-rounded 10th and 11th level characters against a 19th level combat monster with better stats and an entire army of mooks

See, referring to what level the characters are, or otherwise describing them in game terms, is kind of a cop-out since this debate stemmed not from how the characters performed in a game, but rather how they performed in a movie (and whether or not the game is reflecting that accurately). You're mixing up the cart and the horse. Lucas didn't decide Han couldn't beat Vader because of their respective experience point totals. He just decided that a relatively normal guy firing a blaster isn't going to take down Vader. The guys designed Saga decided to use level discrepencies to keep Han a badass gunslinger while explaining his ignominious defeat.

But you're right, Han didn't have a chance against Vader because he's Vader. Which means I'm right too.

 

[Felon]

Don't forget Leia, she was pretty darn impressive when she put an end to poor Jabba!

At the Battle of Endor, Han's pretty accurate with his blaster. And Chewie was accurate enough to hit a moving speederbike and take it out in one shot.

As was said, they do well. They're resourceful, they're capable, they've got heart. But are they really deadly warriors elite? Not so much.

 

[Henry]

...or some other comment that basically evades the issues of whether or not anyone other than jedi were steeped in combat feats.

Wait a minute, though -- you went from "lack of combat capability" and "noncombatants" to "not steeped in combat feats." If I am misunderstanding the first position, then I apologize. 3P0 and R2 are noncombatants, no doubt about it -- but the others, while not hardened warriors, were no slouches in combat, either, and the Saga rules take that tack - while someone doesn't have to be a combat monkey, they're GOING to be combat capable.

I think some people were getting used to having characters who were tech-monkeys, or doctor-monkeys, and making excessive amounts of money or excessively-powerful experimental equipment, and getting their enjoyment off of that. Nothing wrong with it, but in a universe more in tune with the movies, that's not going to happen. I'd love to see an expansion dedicated to such, but in a way I'm glad they kept it out of the core stuff, to make the game quicker and easier to just pick up and run.

Fortunately, we're supposed to be seeing a "starship mod" web enhancement, according to Rodney on the WotC forums, and then the Starships stuff later, so that people can extrapolate their own a bit.