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Star Wars Spoilers Thread [Spoilers]

So here's my review: 100% a Star Wars film which belongs with the original trilogy. It's a transitional film, but it does it well. The new generation is really good. I think the major death was kinda signposted a bit. You knew it was coming long before it happened. I felt worse for Chewie, but he, Rey, and BB8 make a great team. Is this the first Star Wars film where nobody gets their...

So here's my review: 100% a Star Wars film which belongs with the original trilogy.

It's a transitional film, but it does it well. The new generation is really good.

I think the major death was kinda signposted a bit. You knew it was coming long before it happened. I felt worse for Chewie, but he, Rey, and BB8 make a great team.

Is this the first Star Wars film where nobody gets their hand cut off?

Luke lives in Ireland, eh?

Question: WHY was there a map to Luke, and why was it split into two? I feel like I missed something. For that matter, why a map and not just some coordinates? Seems like a random puzzle set up for the sake of it.
ebdc7e9da0a98a020498d701b47512ef.jpg
 

They aren't trying to convey Luke as incestuous, either. You don't get to have it both ways. Either the things that are not mentioned again that any normal person WOULD mention again, including death of family and home world are important and therefore wrong, or they aren't, including the kiss. All three are in the same category, though the death of family and home world are much larger and stronger issues, and therefore much worse "plot holes" when the characters fail to mention them again.

But the kiss isn't mentioned at all. Both of the other issues raised get dealt with when they happen (no one pretends they didn't the way they pretend the kiss never occurred). It is just efficiency of the medium moving things along. We even see Obi-Wan react to the destruction of Alderaan when he senses it.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I see, so condensing away *GEONOCIDE* isn't an issue, but condensing away a kiss that didn't go anywhere.... isn't? Death of *BILLIONS*. A single kiss.

To mirror your first word... really?

Monkey-sphere.

Luke and Leia are known and therefore their actions have elevated importance. I barely know Larses, and don't know anyone on Alderaan, so their tragedies are only as real as the people in my monkey-sphere make them. Therefore, the incestuous kiss (which, in reality, doesn't even count as incest) gains a paramount importance due it occurring within my monkey-sphere, while Owen and Beru burning and the geocide (I like this word better) of Alderaan don't even register as things I should really care about.
 

Monkey-sphere.

Luke and Leia are known and therefore their actions have elevated importance. I barely know Larses, and don't know anyone on Alderaan, so their tragedies are only as real as the people in my monkey-sphere make them. Therefore, the incestuous kiss (which, in reality, doesn't even count as incest) gains a paramount importance due it occurring within my monkey-sphere, while Owen and Beru burning and the geocide (I like this word better) of Alderaan don't even register as things I should really care about.

I think you guys are misreading my point. It isn't about the moral outrage one should feel toward the incest kiss versus other things in the setting, it is about the inconsistency in characterization the incest kiss creates in light of their behavior once they know they are brother and sister. It is notable because it is incest and you expect them to have some kind of reaction to that. But it isn't notable because the viewer is supposed to be outraged about it or something.
 

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amerigoV

Guest
I am not sure I would disregard the incest angle. After all, Leia had major daddy issues - her father did torture her, blow up her planet, and disapproved of her choice in men (who wouldn't want to toss some sex-crazed kid after their daughter in carbinite?). She knew exactly what she was doing - Leia is never portrayed as confused or indecisive in any of the movies. And all of this is confirm by Han in Episode 7 "its true, all of it."

Lets face it, there is no more deviant family in that galaxy than the Starwalkers. They would make a killing on the day-time talk show circuit.

To me the more fun thing is how does Vader torture a woman that is exactly like his dead (love of his life) wife in looks, attitude, hairstyle, and occupation plus is force sensitive but yet he has no idea who she is. Nothing is ever said of it the rest of the trilogy.

(unless Obi Wan is really Luke and Leia's father... then it all makes sense)
 

Istbor

Dances with Gnolls
I think you guys are misreading my point. It isn't about the moral outrage one should feel toward the incest kiss versus other things in the setting, it is about the inconsistency in characterization the incest kiss creates in light of their behavior once they know they are brother and sister. It is notable because it is incest and you expect them to have some kind of reaction to that. But it isn't notable because the viewer is supposed to be outraged about it or something.

Yes, all movies have issues. I am not sure anyone is really hardcore against you on this fact. People point out the consistency issues in the latest movie, because it is fresh in their minds. I am not sure it is simply people only thinking about the Original Trilogy as a perfect gem.

What should the other movies have done? Waste time with the brother and sister acting like awkward young adults? Or could they have just come to terms with it and been like, "Yup, there is a lot more important things out there than worrying about a kiss we shared, in the heat of a tense moment, when were didn't know each other at all."

I prefer to focus on what was important for the story, now worry over some kiss. (Either the death star one, OR the Hoth one.)
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
But the kiss isn't mentioned at all. Both of the other issues raised get dealt with when they happen (no one pretends they didn't the way they pretend the kiss never occurred).

None of these events are directly referenced after they happened. The kiss happens, and is never mentioned again. Lars and Beru die, and once that scene is over, as far as I recall they are never mentioned again in the trilogy. Luke should be in mourning for months afterwards - for all intents and purposes, he saw the burned corpses of his *parents* lying on the ground, for cryin' out loud! Obi-Wan should be directly referencing this event as he trains Luke, as Luke should be *filled* with anger and pain, and a ripe target for the Dark Side at that moment, but... nope. Not a peep - five minutes later it is like nothing major has happened, and we never hear about them again.

Alderaan dies, and there are some gasps and a Jedi senses badness, and it is never referenced again in the film. You'd imagine that some pilot going at the Death Star would shout "For Alderaan!" or something. But, as I recall it, *nothing* is said.

None of which we actually have a problem with. And I'm okay with us not having a problem with them. We are okay glossing over these things, and that's fine. There's some extended canon that deal with Alderaan, at least, but I've never read it and I'm fine with that.

The kiss was innocent enough at the time, given what the people knew. They find out they are siblings *a year later*, while they are rather busy trying to deal with war with the Empire, another dead mentor, a new megaweapon, and Luke is trying to redeem Vader, and you think it is notable issue that they don't go back and deal with a kiss that is only awkward in retrospect?

It seems to me that, in terms of glossing over things that should have major emotional impact, but don't, the kiss is the *least* offender. I'm sorry, but it seems less like valid critique, and more like cherrypicking, to call this out separately as an issue.
 

Yes, all movies have issues. I am not sure anyone is really hardcore against you on this fact. People point out the consistency issues in the latest movie, because it is fresh in their minds. I am not sure it is simply people only thinking about the Original Trilogy as a perfect gem.

What should the other movies have done? Waste time with the brother and sister acting like awkward young adults? Or could they have just come to terms with it and been like, "Yup, there is a lot more important things out there than worrying about a kiss we shared, in the heat of a tense moment, when were didn't know each other at all."

I prefer to focus on what was important for the story, now worry over some kiss. (Either the death star one, OR the Hoth one.)



This is exactly the point I was trying to make. People are too obsessed with plot holes. The kiss is fine, Luke and Leia bring brother and sister are fine. Addressing it would have been awkward and wasted time on something that wasn't an intentional issue but arose because of how the movie was written. Sometimes plot developments introduce inconsistencies or things that make you do s double take and wonder about, but if they yield good material that makes the movie better (like having Luke and Leia be twins does) then it is the right call. Too often in these discussions I think people act as if plot holes automatically mean the movie is bad, or that it would have been better if they fixed/addressed the plot hole. But screen time is precious and every decision is made weighing the good and the bad.
 

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amerigoV

Guest
Over lunch, I just saw a "deleted kiss" - a deleted scene from Jedi when the group splits up from rescuing Han (4min mark in the link). Leia is just like all over Luke all the time. Sickening, really. I almost paused eating my lunch.

https://youtu.be/y1qyXxLIXLw
 

None of these events are directly referenced after they happened. The kiss happens, and is never mentioned again. Lars and Beru die, and once that scene is over, as far as I recall they are never mentioned again in the trilogy. Luke should be in mourning for months afterwards - for all intents and purposes, he saw the burned corpses of his *parents* lying on the ground, for cryin' out loud! Obi-Wan should be directly referencing this event as he trains Luke, as Luke should be *filled* with anger and pain, and a ripe target for the Dark Side at that moment, but... nope. Not a peep - five minutes later it is like nothing major has happened, and we never hear about them again.

I would have to watch the movies again looking for references to both events, but I believe you are right that after the initial occurrences, they don't get mentioned. This is certainly something that might stand out, but I don't think it is the same consistency issue the Leia and Luke kiss present. We do see both Obi-Wan and Leia react to Alderaan. In a more dramatic movie, that emotion would have been milked longer. In an adventure, things generally move on. We are not meant to assume they are less sad about it after the fact. It was simply dealt with, when it was dealt with to keep the tone and move of the movie consistent (also someone shouting 'for Alderaan' later would probably have undercut Ben's somewhat moving reaction to the event---which I think of as a central point in the film). So one never really gets the impression that Alderaan or Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru never happened. We just understand that those emotions were dealt with efficiently when they happened, but Alderaan is still gone at the end of Jedi. With Luke and Leia kissing, there is a change in the setting and characters that is simply never addressed. So it is just this thing that stands out in the movie for me, where when it happens I think, well that is odd because they are brother and sister, but clearly the film maker hadn't written them as bother and sister at this point. It is a characterization issue that is never really dealt with. Frankly I am surprised Lucas never edited it out.

Personally I am fine with that. The twist of them being twins is so iconic, and such a nice way to bring Luke's sister into the story without introducing a whole other character, that I feel it was the right move. My point here is not to say we should stop and condemn the kiss or that it was bad film making. I just raised the issue because it points to where a plot hole or weird development that isn't fully explained can be a good thing for a movie.

Alderaan dies, and there are some gasps and a Jedi senses badness, and it is never referenced again in the film. You'd imagine that some pilot going at the Death Star would shout "For Alderaan!" or something. But, as I recall it, *nothing* is said.

And it would have been a worse movie if they did that.

None of which we actually have a problem with. And I'm okay with us not having a problem with them. We are okay glossing over these things, and that's fine. There's some extended canon that deal with Alderaan, at least, but I've never read it and I'm fine with that.

Which has been my point the whole time. Glossing over the kiss is fine, just like glossing over other rough edges (and allowing rough edges and inconsistencies to crop up when they add something to the story) is fine.

The kiss was innocent enough at the time, given what the people knew. They find out they are siblings *a year later*, while they are rather busy trying to deal with war with the Empire, another dead mentor, a new megaweapon, and Luke is trying to redeem Vader, and you think it is notable issue that they don't go back and deal with a kiss that is only awkward in retrospect?

It seems to me that, in terms of glossing over things that should have major emotional impact, but don't, the kiss is the *least* offender. I'm sorry, but it seems less like valid critique, and more like cherrypicking, to call this out separately as an issue.[/QUOTE]
 


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