With all due respect, this is terrible advice for someone who hasn't grocked the starship system in general. Picking things at random because they "sound good" then adding up the costs does not really do much for helping understand the system. Better to choose a ship from the ones provided that seems the best fit and run it through a few space combats -- in game or just as tests -- and see what works how. IMO, of course.
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With all due respect, this is terrible advice for someone who hasn't grocked the starship system in general. Picking things at random because they "sound good" then adding up the costs does not really do much for helping understand the system. Better to choose a ship from the ones provided that seems the best fit and run it through a few space combats -- in game or just as tests -- and see what works how. IMO, of course.
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
The one's provided don't give you any more information to "grok the rules" they only show you how a stat block should appear - I looked at those ships at first and the stats and weapon choices, etc. went over my head. The best way to learn anything is by doing and doing it the way I suggest above, by the third starship I built, I could call myself a system master of Starfinder starship building. In my above post the first things you do, according to Paizo is pick Size, Tier and Power Core, but having tried that - I discovered that doing so is backwards. How can you pick a Power Core, when you need to pick all your ships systems first, what you pick determine the Power Core you need (looking at each PCU cost, not every system uses PCU). Picking Power and Tier first, you're basing that on a wild guess, and choosing systems that fit the cost of your chosen Tier is almost impossible to do.
Maybe what I didn't say, was that I read the Starship rules 3 or 4 times - reading about all the computers and weapons, and other systems before trying to build a ship. What I explain above, is after you've done that - only by trying to build a ship does any of that reading make sense. If you try to pick Tier and Power Core first, you're going to get lost trying to match. My described way, says forget about that, and just build your ship, your choices determine Tier and Power Core. Once you build a few ships, then it really starts to sink in.
So while a convoluted method, I disagree with you suggesting it's terrible - I think it's the only advice that can be offered.
Maybe what I didn't say, was that I read the Starship rules 3 or 4 times - reading about all the computers and weapons, and other systems before trying to build a ship. What I explain above, is after you've done that - only by trying to build a ship does any of that reading make sense. If you try to pick Tier and Power Core first, you're going to get lost trying to match. My described way, says forget about that, and just build your ship, your choices determine Tier and Power Core. Once you build a few ships, then it really starts to sink in.
So while a convoluted method, I disagree with you suggesting it's terrible - I think it's the only advice that can be offered.
"Terrible" was too absolute and negative a word to use; my apologies.
My point was that without some experience with the actual system, blindly throwing together ship elements is not likely to very efficient. There are a lot of moving part and knowing how they operate together is important. The best way to do that, IMO, is through using the provided examples. Then, when you build your first ship you can say, "I didn't like how the standard ship did X; how do I fix it?" and interrogating the construction system to solve those problems specifically.
That said, there is nothing inherently wrong with a trial-and-error method either. I just find such methods of learning new systems to produce results of uncertain utility.
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
I don't disagree, but without actually trying to build a ship, it's hard to know how the systems work with each other, and where or which systems should be optimized. Just reading all the system capabilities it isn't obvious how they work together in total to achieve a desired Tier, and which Power Core to choose and build your ship. By the method I describe, after designing one ship - I got it. After designing 2 more with a completely different design goal each, I could call myself a system master. I find the computer nodes to be the most complex aspect to "get", as they aren't obvious. You have to read the section on Computers in the Equipment chapter, which precedes Starship rules.
Note - many systems show the Build Point cost as being 2 x ship scale. You have to read the section on Drift drives to learn that ship scale numbers are Tiny = 1, Small = 2, Medium = 3, etc. The ship scale as numbers isn't shown anywhere else but under Drift drives, if you don't read that section first, you're never going to know how to multiply 3 x small, and more than half of the systems have this kind of cost calculation.
Also you need to look at page 320 to determine how AC and TL are calculated (it's 10 + piloting ranks + system bonus modifier).
While I agree that "trial and error" may not be the best method, there isn't a more obvious way to design ships by reading the material - understand how shields work in relation to Armor is NOT obvious from reading it, but by building it, epiphanies come - at least it did for me.
I will say that once you get the stats and creation rules for ships, though you can build it and know it, it doesn't obviously translate to how you construct your deck plans for your ships if you intend to do that (you probably do). It's more hand-wave, making sure you include all the necessary systems on your ship - there is no definition in size or tonnage weight how big each system is - you kind of make that up, at least I haven't seen that for a huge ship the engines or other systems need to take X amount of space aboard. You have to be an artist, somewhat to guess for your own purposes.
Here's an example of ship stats, and here's a deck plan I based off those stats (unarmed entertainer transport ship):
Scarlet Harlot Tier 12
Geisha class Entertainment Escort starship (Large)
Speed 10; Maneuverability average (piloting +0); Drift 1
AC 26; TL 30
HP 180 (increment 20); DT –; CT 24
Shields heavy 280 (forward arc 70, port arc 70, starboard arc 70, aft arc 70)
Attack (Forward) -
Attack (Port) -
Attack (Starboard) -
Attack (Aft) -
Power Core Gateway Heavy (PCU 400 ); Drift Engine 1;
Systems L10 thrusters, Mk 10 armor, Mk 6 duonode, Mk 10 defenses, advanced medium range
sensors, security computer countermeasures, crew quarters luxurious
Expansion Bays 1 luxurious guest quarters, rec suite (gym), medical bay, cargo hold; rec suite
(nightclub), fine dining bay, chef’s kitchen bay, and theater stage bay.
Modifiers +6; Complement 20
View attachment geisha-starship.jpg
Note - many systems show the Build Point cost as being 2 x ship scale. You have to read the section on Drift drives to learn that ship scale numbers are Tiny = 1, Small = 2, Medium = 3, etc. The ship scale as numbers isn't shown anywhere else but under Drift drives, if you don't read that section first, you're never going to know how to multiply 3 x small, and more than half of the systems have this kind of cost calculation.
Also you need to look at page 320 to determine how AC and TL are calculated (it's 10 + piloting ranks + system bonus modifier).
While I agree that "trial and error" may not be the best method, there isn't a more obvious way to design ships by reading the material - understand how shields work in relation to Armor is NOT obvious from reading it, but by building it, epiphanies come - at least it did for me.
I will say that once you get the stats and creation rules for ships, though you can build it and know it, it doesn't obviously translate to how you construct your deck plans for your ships if you intend to do that (you probably do). It's more hand-wave, making sure you include all the necessary systems on your ship - there is no definition in size or tonnage weight how big each system is - you kind of make that up, at least I haven't seen that for a huge ship the engines or other systems need to take X amount of space aboard. You have to be an artist, somewhat to guess for your own purposes.
Here's an example of ship stats, and here's a deck plan I based off those stats (unarmed entertainer transport ship):
Scarlet Harlot Tier 12
Geisha class Entertainment Escort starship (Large)
Speed 10; Maneuverability average (piloting +0); Drift 1
AC 26; TL 30
HP 180 (increment 20); DT –; CT 24
Shields heavy 280 (forward arc 70, port arc 70, starboard arc 70, aft arc 70)
Attack (Forward) -
Attack (Port) -
Attack (Starboard) -
Attack (Aft) -
Power Core Gateway Heavy (PCU 400 ); Drift Engine 1;
Systems L10 thrusters, Mk 10 armor, Mk 6 duonode, Mk 10 defenses, advanced medium range
sensors, security computer countermeasures, crew quarters luxurious
Expansion Bays 1 luxurious guest quarters, rec suite (gym), medical bay, cargo hold; rec suite
(nightclub), fine dining bay, chef’s kitchen bay, and theater stage bay.
Modifiers +6; Complement 20
View attachment geisha-starship.jpg
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gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
Double post - delete please.
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Andor
First Post
One thing that struck me about the expansion bays is that they seem to be poorly thought out. By which I mean the sizing is somewhat inconsistent and that large ships don't have nearly enough of them.
For example a single bay defaults to a cargo bay which can hold about 25 tons with no single item being of greater than size "large". Ok. Seems reasonable. 4 bays together let you store huge items and 8 for gargantuan. Plausible.
A single bay seems to be about room sized. A single bay will function as a workshop, or medical bay, or enchanting lab. They will sleep 6 or seat 16. At a guess a bay is a space of maybe 10x10x20.
The problem is the number of bays by size of the ship. They actually do pretty well up through maybe large but here's the problem:
SIDEBAR: STARSHIP SCALE
Though the size categories of starships have the same names as the size categories of creatures, they operate on completely different scales. Even within a size category, a starships’s exact measurements might differ between base frames and manufacturers. The size of a starships also modifies its Armor Class and Target Lock as indicated.
Size Length Weight AC and TL Modifier
Tiny 20–60 ft. 3–20 tons +2
Small 60–120 ft. 20–40 tons +1
Medium 120–300 ft. 40–150 tons +0
Large 300–800 ft. 150–420 tons –1
Huge 800–2,000 ft. 420–1,200 tons –2
Gargantuan 2,000–15,000 ft. 1,200–8,000 tons –4
Colossal Over 15,000 ft. Over 8,000 tons –8
The number of bays don't keep up with the volume of the ships. A large ship is bigger than any aircraft ever flown but holds fewer passengers than a small airliner. A colossal ship is literally miles long but only has 20 bays to the large freighters 8. It's the David Weber thing again. Cube-square law boys, look it up.
For example a single bay defaults to a cargo bay which can hold about 25 tons with no single item being of greater than size "large". Ok. Seems reasonable. 4 bays together let you store huge items and 8 for gargantuan. Plausible.
A single bay seems to be about room sized. A single bay will function as a workshop, or medical bay, or enchanting lab. They will sleep 6 or seat 16. At a guess a bay is a space of maybe 10x10x20.
The problem is the number of bays by size of the ship. They actually do pretty well up through maybe large but here's the problem:
SIDEBAR: STARSHIP SCALE
Though the size categories of starships have the same names as the size categories of creatures, they operate on completely different scales. Even within a size category, a starships’s exact measurements might differ between base frames and manufacturers. The size of a starships also modifies its Armor Class and Target Lock as indicated.
Size Length Weight AC and TL Modifier
Tiny 20–60 ft. 3–20 tons +2
Small 60–120 ft. 20–40 tons +1
Medium 120–300 ft. 40–150 tons +0
Large 300–800 ft. 150–420 tons –1
Huge 800–2,000 ft. 420–1,200 tons –2
Gargantuan 2,000–15,000 ft. 1,200–8,000 tons –4
Colossal Over 15,000 ft. Over 8,000 tons –8
The number of bays don't keep up with the volume of the ships. A large ship is bigger than any aircraft ever flown but holds fewer passengers than a small airliner. A colossal ship is literally miles long but only has 20 bays to the large freighters 8. It's the David Weber thing again. Cube-square law boys, look it up.
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
Well I have to admit that I am somewhat influenced by Traveller RPG here, what Starfinder states as a luxury crew berth - having a bed, a full bathroom, perhaps a counter with limited kitchen facilities and maybe a table and chair or desk and chair, this is exactly what Traveller defines as standard crew berth, and that measures 10' x 20'. So using those dimensions, I calculate that a luxury guest quarters bay which holds 4 independent berths, plus a 10' wide corridor between them, measures 30' x 40'. Those are the dimensions I use in my current Starfinder starship builds. So all the expansion bays in my ships are 30' x 40'. Notably a hanger bay, by Starfinder rules can only be used in Gargantuan or larger ships, so obviously a hanger bay is bigger than the other listed bay types.
But I agree, the expansion bay rules are rather missing some important details to be viable. So I've had to make up the differences in my head, based on experience with other sci-fi games.
I used my defined bay sizes in that starship deck plan I posted above in this thread. The large room at the center rear with the stage, lounge, restaurant dining area and large ship's galley are technically four different expansion bays, which I removed the interior walls of to create a large bay (but by the rules this large bay is really 4 expansion bays put together.)
But I agree, the expansion bay rules are rather missing some important details to be viable. So I've had to make up the differences in my head, based on experience with other sci-fi games.
I used my defined bay sizes in that starship deck plan I posted above in this thread. The large room at the center rear with the stage, lounge, restaurant dining area and large ship's galley are technically four different expansion bays, which I removed the interior walls of to create a large bay (but by the rules this large bay is really 4 expansion bays put together.)
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jimtillman
Explorer
mines fine but its a big book i can see how binding issues could happen
hopefully its a small % of the books
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
Its 769 right now on Amazon USA. Its below the 3 D&D corebooks plus the two new ones, but ahead of the starter set or Volo's (the 2nd monster book).
Still, by far, the best a rpg book that is not D&D has done since 5E came out.
Of course, it is totally dominating Paizo's own rankings that they release.
Looking at the book, there is a lot there. A lot. Maybe too much for some. Still, I think it could have some staying power.
Still, by far, the best a rpg book that is not D&D has done since 5E came out.
Of course, it is totally dominating Paizo's own rankings that they release.
Looking at the book, there is a lot there. A lot. Maybe too much for some. Still, I think it could have some staying power.
happyhermit
Adventurer
Starfinder is the #62 best selling book in Canada on Amazon right now. Oddly, it is cheaper than one might expect; $39.21 USD (47.70 CAD) vs $46.60 in the US ATM.
Pretty cool to see 6 of the top 100 books be TTRPGs, and from two systems even.
Pretty cool to see 6 of the top 100 books be TTRPGs, and from two systems even.
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