D&D 5E Status of skills/tools and expected changes

[Falling Icicle]

5e doesn't have a take 20 rule, does it?

 

[GnomeWorks]

There's another, very different approach: just allow one check per challenge, and rework the narrative backwards. E.g. when a lock has DC at which you'd succeed with 30% probability, don't think of it as "if I try to pick this lock 100 times, I would succeed ~30 times", but instead think of it as "if I try to pick 100 locks similar to this, I would succeed with ~30 of them". In other words, you have ONE attempt, if you fail it means this lock is not one of those 30 locks you can pick.

This is rather reminiscent of the old-school "one attempt per lock" mechanic, or however it specifically worked, and cannot for the life of me understand why it makes any sense. In such a world, how would a thief even get to the point of being able to pick locks with any regularity, if - on any given lock - they have exactly one attempt to get it right?

 

[Li Shenron]

5e doesn't have a take 20 rule, does it?

AFAIK, not officially, at least yet, but I might be wrong.

 

[Li Shenron]

This is rather reminiscent of the old-school "one attempt per lock" mechanic, or however it specifically worked, and cannot for the life of me understand why it makes any sense. In such a world, how would a thief even get to the point of being able to pick locks with any regularity, if - on any given lock - they have exactly one attempt to get it right?

She has a lot of "regularity" from the fact that the her average chance is high, plus a lot of locks don't even require a check from her.

What makes more sense for you: that every single lock in town is certain success, or sometimes she can still fail? If the DM decides for the first (for example because the town is small enough, or because at her level she's beyond pretty much all mundane locks available for sales to normal people), then just don't require a check at all. Require a check only for a lock in a dungeon, or occasionally where failure can force players to find another solution.

But with Take20 as a default rule, every lock is 100% success or 100% failure (there is another option tho, which is requiring some narrative creative idea to turn failure into success).

 

[Plaguescarred]

5e doesn't have a take 20 rule, does it?

There are some sorta, you can find them under Multiple Ability Checks in DM Guidelines pg. 04;

Multiple Ability Checks: Sometimes a character fails an ability check and wants to try again. You have a couple of options in this case. In most cases, the character can simply try again. The only real cost is the time it takes. The character keeps trying and, after enough time passes, eventually succeeds. To speed things up, you can assume that a character can automatically succeed at a task if he or she spends twenty times the normal amount of time needed to complete it. This exception does not allow a character to turn an impossible task into a successful one. In other cases, the first failure renders subsequent ability checks impossible. For instance, a rogue tries to trick a town guard into thinking that the group members are undercover agents of the king. The rogue loses the contest of Charisma (Deception) against Wisdom. The same lie told again clearly won’t work.

 

[Sadrik]

I think that's in the ad/disad rules.

1) Makeshift tools - check at disadvantage
2) Standard tools - normal check
3) Masterwork tools - check at advantage

Probably better than a separate rule or each situation.

I don't agree that this should be where advantage/disadvantage should be used. Imagine a situation where an adventurer is climbing an icy stormy mountain with makeshift climbing gear. I think the icy and stormy conditions should provide the disadvantage not the makeshift tools.

This is the flaw with the advantage/disadvantage every time you can imagine a bonus or penalty for something it gets applied. But it cannot be this way. Then you will have to look and see if in this case it is an advantage/disadvantage or a modifier.

 

[Mistwell]

I don't agree that this should be where advantage/disadvantage should be used. Imagine a situation where an adventurer is climbing an icy stormy mountain with makeshift climbing gear. I think the icy and stormy conditions should provide the disadvantage not the makeshift tools.

No, that is the DC being set to climb that mountain. Conditions involved with the climb have always been the DC part of the formula, even from as far back as 1e.

 

[Sadrik]

There's another, very different approach: just allow one check per challenge, and rework the narrative backwards. E.g. when a lock has DC at which you'd succeed with 30% probability, don't think of it as "if I try to pick this lock 100 times, I would succeed ~30 times", but instead think of it as "if I try to pick 100 locks similar to this, I would succeed with ~30 of them". In other words, you have ONE attempt, if you fail it means this lock is not one of those 30 locks you can pick.

Yes, but... When can you retry? In some editions, if you fail a lock or fail to read a scroll properly then you cannot attempt that lock or scroll again until your level increases. I think this is silly too.

So you fail a lock pick. At what point do you get another chance at attempting to pick the lock? Based on your thoughts above the answer would be never because you can only ever open 30% of all locks. 70% of locks you have no chance at opening.

There has to be some mechanic to be able to retry a ability/skill roll. I think some factors that become important in retrying are: study/research to get a better understanding, getting better tools to adequately perform the task, and more time to address the detail to make notes and draw conclusions. Each of these things should be factors in any skill roll.

 

[Sadrik]

The question of time is another matter. The solution used in FATE is the best I have seen in play:

there's a time track (e.g. seconds-half a minute-minutes-15 minutes-an hour-hours-a day-days-a week-weeks--a month-months-a year-years-decades-a lifetime). The ref sets the target number and the expected time to accomplish an action. If the layer beats it with the roll, it can be done quicker by that many shifts; if they fail, they can succeed by taking the extra time.

So picking a lock might take a thief minutes, but beating it (let's say for each +2) can reduce that time. Researching a new spell might normally take years, but a successful roll might reduce that to a few months. It's a very clean system in play, but it would obviously need some tweaking to fit D&D.

This is also in the very old school game champions which I played a lot of. I always felt like this would be a good addition to any game. In 3e the metamagic feat extend doubled the duration but it would have been better to move it once down the time chart. This could also be a good application of this chart.
1 action (6 seconds)
1 minute
10 minutes
1 hour
8 hours
1 day
1 week
1 month
1 year

So to retry a skill or to gain "advantage" in a skill check you just up the time ante by 1. Whether that be a modifier or using the advantage disadvantage system idk. Reduce the time by one and you hasten your climb, picking, etc. Very good addition to the rules if done right.

 

[Sadrik]

No, that is the DC being set to climb that mountain. Conditions involved with the climb have always been the DC part of the formula, even from as far back as 1e.

Climb (Str; Armor Check Penalty)
Check

With a successful Climb check, you can advance up, down, or across a slope, a wall, or some other steep incline (or even a ceiling with handholds) at one-quarter your normal speed. A slope is considered to be any incline at an angle measuring less than 60 degrees; a wall is any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more.

A Climb check that fails by 4 or less means that you make no progress, and one that fails by 5 or more means that you fall from whatever height you have already attained.

A climber’s kit gives you a +2 circumstance bonus on Climb checks.

The DC of the check depends on the conditions of the climb. Compare the task with those on the following table to determine an appropriate DC.
Climb
DC Example Surface or Activity
0 A slope too steep to walk up, or a knotted rope with a wall to brace against.
5 A rope with a wall to brace against, or a knotted rope, or a rope affected by the rope trick spell.
10 A surface with ledges to hold on to and stand on, such as a very rough wall or a ship’s rigging.
15 Any surface with adequate handholds and footholds (natural or artificial), such as a very rough natural rock surface or a tree, or an unknotted rope, or pulling yourself up when dangling by your hands.
20 An uneven surface with some narrow handholds and footholds, such as a typical wall in a dungeon or ruins.
25 A rough surface, such as a natural rock wall or a brick wall.
25 An overhang or ceiling with handholds but no footholds.
— A perfectly smooth, flat, vertical surface cannot be climbed.
Climb DC
Modifier1 Example Surface or Activity

These modifiers are cumulative; use any that apply.

-10 Climbing a chimney (artificial or natural) or other location where you can brace against two opposite walls (reduces DC by 10).
-5 Climbing a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls (reduces DC by 5).
+5 Surface is slippery (increases DC by 5).

You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand. While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). You also can’t use a shield while climbing.

Any time you take damage while climbing, make a Climb check against the DC of the slope or wall. Failure means you fall from your current height and sustain the appropriate falling damage.
Accelerated Climbing

You try to climb more quickly than normal. By accepting a -5 penalty, you can move half your speed (instead of one-quarter your speed).
Making Your Own Handholds and Footholds

You can make your own handholds and footholds by pounding pitons into a wall. Doing so takes 1 minute per piton, and one piton is needed per 3 feet of distance. As with any surface that offers handholds and footholds, a wall with pitons in it has a DC of 15. In the same way, a climber with a handaxe or similar implement can cut handholds in an ice wall.
Catching Yourself When Falling

It’s practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling. Make a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 20) to do so. It’s much easier to catch yourself on a slope (DC = slope’s DC + 10).
Catching a Falling Character While Climbing

If someone climbing above you or adjacent to you falls, you can attempt to catch the falling character if he or she is within your reach. Doing so requires a successful melee touch attack against the falling character (though he or she can voluntarily forego any Dexterity bonus to AC if desired). If you hit, you must immediately attempt a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 10). Success indicates that you catch the falling character, but his or her total weight, including equipment, cannot exceed your heavy load limit or you automatically fall. If you fail your Climb check by 4 or less, you fail to stop the character’s fall but don’t lose your grip on the wall. If you fail by 5 or more, you fail to stop the character’s fall and begin falling as well.

See also: epic usages of Climb.
Action

Climbing is part of movement, so it’s generally part of a move action (and may be combined with other types of movement in a move action). Each move action that includes any climbing requires a separate Climb check. Catching yourself or another falling character doesn’t take an action.
Special

You can use a rope to haul a character upward (or lower a character) through sheer strength. You can lift double your maximum load in this manner.

Just as a point of reference. So climbing in this case you want to use disadvantage/advantage for masterwork climbers kit.

You want to move circumstantial penalties stormy and windy conditions to the DC chart as a DC modifier. So will each skill DC table have a list of circumstantial modifiers?

In this case, I would simplify this table for climbing in any game I would write. I would also take all the "if someone fails a roll while climbing" and seriously simplify and clean up that language written therein.

Suffice I do not agree. I think the quality of the tools should not grant advantage/disadvantage and I would not hide skill modifiers as DC modifiers. That adds rules bloat. I would try and remove DC modifiers and go with a single DC table. and perhaps with the universal exception of masterwork tool +1/poor tool -1 (note I would use these bonuses because tightened DCs in 5e and to make it in line with masterwork weapons)