D&D 5E Status of skills/tools and expected changes

[Sadrik]

To add more complexity to the issue of how and when advantage disadvantage is used in skill checks. It is used in the case of stealth in one key area if you are wearing certain types of armor. So now this limits modifiers for conditions of the environment or anything else. It will be very interesting to see how this pans out in the final game. It will either be too simplistic or too arbitrary and not clear on when to apply advantage/disadvantage to a particular check. Guaranteed this will be a topic of forum discussion for years- "Why in this case it works this way and not in this case this way?"

 

[Mistwell]

Just as a point of reference. So climbing in this case you want to use disadvantage/advantage for masterwork climbers kit.

You want to move circumstantial penalties stormy and windy conditions to the DC chart as a DC modifier. So will each skill DC table have a list of circumstantial modifiers?

In this case, I would simplify this table for climbing in any game I would write. I would also take all the "if someone fails a roll while climbing" and seriously simplify and clean up that language written therein.

Suffice I do not agree. I think the quality of the tools should not grant advantage/disadvantage and I would not hide skill modifiers as DC modifiers. That adds rules bloat. I would try and remove DC modifiers and go with a single DC table. and perhaps with the universal exception of masterwork tool +1/poor tool -1 (note I would use these bonuses because tightened DCs in 5e and to make it in line with masterwork weapons)

I am not hiding skill modifiers in DCs....I am using DCs the same way they've always been used! It's DIFFICULTY CLASS. The DIFFICULTY of the task is determined by a number, called a CLASS. A windy and ice-slicked steep mountain sheer wall has a higher difficulty class to climb it than a calm dry inclined wall with lots of hand holds.

You're not saving any time by saying "All climbing is a DC 10" and then adding or subtracting a modifier for the check based on the difficulty - it's the same work, you're just splitting it out as a big modifier for the player to deal with. Just calculate the DC (like has been done in every version of the game), and have the player roll to see if they hit that DC. That's the d20 system - it's the entire point of the d20 system!

 

[Sadrik]

I am not hiding skill modifiers in DCs....I am using DCs the same way they've always been used! It's DIFFICULTY CLASS. The DIFFICULTY of the task is determined by a number, called a CLASS. A windy and ice-slicked steep mountain sheer wall has a higher difficulty class to climb it than a calm dry inclined wall with lots of hand holds.

You're not saving any time by saying "All climbing is a DC 10" and then adding or subtracting a modifier for the check based on the difficulty - it's the same work, you're just splitting it out as a big modifier for the player to deal with. Just calculate the DC (like has been done in every version of the game), and have the player roll to see if they hit that DC. That's the d20 system - it's the entire point of the d20 system!

Below is what I would do.

DC Example Surface or Activity
0 A slope too steep to walk up, or a knotted rope with a wall to brace against.
5 A rope with a wall to brace against, or a knotted rope, or a rope affected by the rope trick spell, or a chimney or other area where you can brace against two opposite walls.
10 A surface with ledges to hold on to and stand on, such as a very rough wall or a ship’s rigging, or a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls.
15 Any surface with adequate handholds and footholds (natural or artificial), such as a very rough natural rock surface or a tree, or an unknotted rope, or pulling yourself up when dangling by your hands.
20 An uneven surface with some narrow handholds and footholds, such as a typical wall in a dungeon or ruins.
25 A rough surface, such as a natural rock wall or a brick wall.
25 An overhang or ceiling with handholds but no footholds.
— A perfectly smooth, flat, vertical surface cannot be climbed.

These modifiers are cumulative; use any that apply.
+5 climb at speed in 1 minute
+0 climb at 1/4 speed
-5 climb at 1/2 speed
-10 climb at full speed

(for climbing kits I would have this listed in the equipment section and only talk about a climbing kit in general here)
+1 for masterwork climbing kit
-1 for poor or makeshift climbing kit

(I would have this be an application of these rules and not have them listed here or have them as examples of how the general rule is applied)
Disadvantage for unsafe conditions (slippery stormy etc.)
Advantage for safe conditions (rare but can imagine some magic items and spells, such as spider climb etc)

You fall on a fail by 5 or more. To catch yourself make a Dex save DC 20. To catch someone else falling next to or passing by you make a Dex save 20 and a Str save DC 20 to hold on to them. If you fail the Str save by 5 you both fall.

One other note about these DC, I am not clear on how they should listed, I have not come to a clear idea what their numbers should actually be. Is 25 a reasonable top DC? I am still unclear what the modifiers will be for characters and what they should look like in comparison to the DCs.

 

[Mistwell]

You model outrage pretty well.

Well I guess that ends our conversation pretty quick.

 

[Umbran]

You model outrage pretty well.

I wonder at times, what positive outcome anyone expects from such personal comments.

Don't make it personal, Sadrik. Address the logic of the post, not the person of the poster. This verges on ad hominem, and is thus both weak sauce, rhetorically, and rude, socially.

 

[Kobold Stew]

This is also in the very old school game champions which I played a lot of. I always felt like this would be a good addition to any game. In 3e the metamagic feat extend doubled the duration but it would have been better to move it once down the time chart. This could also be a good application of this chart.
1 action (6 seconds)
1 minute
10 minutes
1 hour
8 hours
1 day
1 week
1 month
1 year

So to retry a skill or to gain "advantage" in a skill check you just up the time ante by 1. Whether that be a modifier or using the advantage disadvantage system idk. Reduce the time by one and you hasten your climb, picking, etc. Very good addition to the rules if done right.

I haven't played Champions in decades! I'd completely forgotten that was there. It's very effective in FATE, and does solve the multiple-rolls/take 20 problems others are describing.

 

[Li Shenron]

This is the flaw with the advantage/disadvantage every time you can imagine a bonus or penalty for something it gets applied. But it cannot be this way. Then you will have to look and see if in this case it is an advantage/disadvantage or a modifier.

I agree, although I'd use a more gentle word and say it's the limit rather than flaw.

I hope the designers are keeping an eye on how many different things are "solved" by granting advantage. They love for the novelty idea is understandable, but it just cannot be too common.

Yes, but... When can you retry? In some editions, if you fail a lock or fail to read a scroll properly then you cannot attempt that lock or scroll again until your level increases. I think this is silly too.

So you fail a lock pick. At what point do you get another chance at attempting to pick the lock? Based on your thoughts above the answer would be never because you can only ever open 30% of all locks. 70% of locks you have no chance at opening.

There has to be some mechanic to be able to retry a ability/skill roll. I think some factors that become important in retrying are: study/research to get a better understanding, getting better tools to adequately perform the task, and more time to address the detail to make notes and draw conclusions. Each of these things should be factors in any skill roll.

The "next level" idea had its own reasons, but I don't like it very much either.

I would just let the DM handle case by case. I am not positive about a general rule for this, because skills cover truly a diverse range of different actions.

In many cases actually, the task won't even present itself again. If it happens in a dungeon (or in the exploration phase in general), there's a very good chance the PCs won't come back to the same place again, or won't find it the same if they do.

It's more a theoretical problem than a practical one. Say that the players really tell me they want to go back to last month's dungeon because they left a lock unopened? Fine, I'll let them go and have another chance, but I don't think I really need to bother with a rule that tells me how much time has to pass.

 

[Sadrik]

I wonder at times, what positive outcome anyone expects from such personal comments.

Don't make it personal, Sadrik. Address the logic of the post, not the person of the poster. This verges on ad hominem, and is thus both weak sauce, rhetorically, and rude, socially.

Removed, was inappropriate.

 

[GnomeWorks]

What makes more sense for you: that every single lock in town is certain success, or sometimes she can still fail? If the DM decides for the first (for example because the town is small enough, or because at her level she's beyond pretty much all mundane locks available for sales to normal people), then just don't require a check at all. Require a check only for a lock in a dungeon, or occasionally where failure can force players to find another solution.

Honestly, this sounds rather sensible to me. When I call a locksmith IRL, I expect that he will have the expertise and the tools necessary to ensure that he can open a lock - I hardly expect him to fail.

Under pressure, in a combat situation? It makes more sense to roll in that case. But with no pressure, ample time, and favorable conditions? Sure, if the individual has the ability, why not just make it an auto-success?

But with Take20 as a default rule, every lock is 100% success or 100% failure (there is another option tho, which is requiring some narrative creative idea to turn failure into success).

If take 20 is in play, this makes sense to me, for certain skills. Either you know how to pick a lock well enough, or you don't. Tools and circumstance may make a bit of difference either way, but that doesn't change the fact that a lock is definitely a binary scenario: either you can pick it, or you can't.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Sometimes, the skilled fail at even basic tasks. This happens because of inattention, exhaustion, not having done that particular task for some time, stress...a host of reasons.

I've seen hockey players miss unopposed empty netters from 5 feet or less. I've seen footage of a veteran police officer shooting himself in the foot during a safety demo.

Despite being a really good cook, I utterly carbonized a grilled cheese sandwich in 2012 because I hadn't made one in a decade, and I was being inattentive.

So, while I understand the design choice for the favoring of auto successes, I'd rather they were kept to a minimum.