Stirges and Dragons

[Setanta]

I always forget about Gate. I've never been involved in a high enough level campaign where someone could actually cast it, other than maybe a BBEG off-screen.

Stirge isn't on the any SM list, but at CR 1/2, it's roughly on par with the SM I critters. The SM lists aren't meant to be definitive. If one of my players wanted to summon a stirge with SM I, that would be fine with me.

 

[jgsugden]

About the Tarrasque... IIRC regenerating creatures are immune in 3.5 against ability damage, right?

Edit: Hmm, it's not in the SRD conditions section... I read it in a 3.5 conversion guide about the Tarrasque somewhere... could someone verify or tell me that I'm stupid?

It isn't worth it to me to look it up, but IIRC, the Tarrasque is immune to ability score damage.

 

[CRGreathouse]

It isn't worth it to me to look it up, but IIRC, the Tarrasque is immune to ability score damage.

Yep. From the SRD:

Special Qualities: Carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage, regeneration 40, scent, spell resistance 32

 

[Flyspeck23]

About the Tarrasque... IIRC regenerating creatures are immune in 3.5 against ability damage, right?

Edit: Hmm, it's not in the SRD conditions section... I read it in a 3.5 conversion guide about the Tarrasque somewhere... could someone verify or tell me that I'm stupid?

The opposite is true:
"Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage (...) ignore regeneration." (MM, p.314).

It's not in the SRD, that's right. Ain't got a clue why not...

 

[Gaiden]

The stirges would have to make a will save against the dragon's Frightful Presence. Plus the striges have to be attached at the beginning of the round to drain CON. Thus giving the dragon a chance to brush them off with it's normal attacks.

PS. If the dragon is immune to it's own breath weapon, it could always breath on itself.

So we need a Remove Fear spell (1st level) metamagicked to affect multiple stirges and need to summon them/have them attack immediately after the dragon breaths.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it, especially since the strige only has a grapple of +1, and an adult white dragon (you didn't specifiy, so I picked the wimpiest one) has a grapple of +28, so the stirge should never be able to get a hold anyway.

Even against a wimpier dragon, by the time the mage gets a full round spell off, then the stirges have to attach and be attached at the beginning of its turn to actually drain, the dragon's got some time to do something like cast a fireshield. If the player gets away with it, and the stirges actually win a grapple check, great, but I don't think that's likely.

From my reading of the stirge entry, the stirges roll the touch attack to attach to the dragon, and if they are still attached at the beginning of the next round they automatically deal their damage. The grapple bonus only would apply if the dragon attempts to grapple with them. Moreover, the number of grapple attempts a dragon gets would be limited to 1 (+1 with haste). In other words, the grapple check is only listed for purposes of creatures opposed grapple check on the creature's turn but has no bearing on the stirge actually attaching to the dragon (and this has continuity with how the stirge has always worked in the past).

This means that the stirge tactic truly is devastating. Working the numbers with 17 stirges:

Round after dragon breaths, are all summoned and then a quickened, chained, remove fear (or something that works like that) is cast on all the stirges. They are directed to attack the dragon. They all fly towards the dragon and provoking AoO latch onto the dragon - there are now 16 left and pretty much all hit with their +7 to hit on touch attacks vs. the dragon's AC 8 touch attack or worse (for the older dragons).

The dragon gets to go and grapples with one instantly killing it. Let's presume it is hasted so it can remove 2. Now there are 14 left. All the stirges go: an average of 35 con damage. All but a blue/green wyrm/great wyrm are statistically guaranteed death.

Even if the dragon had CR and a pumped dex, it would still leave 10 stirges or so, killing all but the most powerful of dragons. Great cleave would negate this tactic, true as would breathing immediately the next round. So this is a 1in4 this insta-death attack won't work - seems better odds than trying to beat the creature's SR or saves. .

...all I can say is...Wow...WOW!

 

[James McMurray]

Even if everything goes off exatly a planned the dragon would just either teleport away from the stirges or hit them with an AoE spell, or roll a 1 on his breath recharge and nuke them, or any of a number of other options available to any dragon capable of holding his own against a 17th level party.

And that's assuming that the dragon's touch AC is actually that low. He culd very well have up spells to boost it, from the lowly Shield of Faith to the mighty Scintillaing scales.

 

[Aristotle]

The Dragon would also have feats. 7 of them for an Adult White. In my games Cleave would almost definately be on that list, and Great Cleave would be a possibility.

Heck, if you are using Monster Summoning I or II the dragon might just counter it and be done with it.


I'm not saying the idea wouldn't work, but it isn't exactly surefire. It would depend greatly on the dragon, the DM, and your timing.

 

[Nightfall]

A smart dragon has deflection modifiers if they are REALLY that good. Or at least go Ascended.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Any single spell that will force a purely defensive action by a dragon is a Big Win in my book. The larger the Party, the bigger the edge gained for the heroes.

 

[Shin Okada]

How about using Shadows? They cause strength damage with incorporeal touch. They are immune to fear as they are undeads. And their incorporeality will eventually stop great cleaving.